Authority Post (2)
Authority (cont'd)


Dear Richard...Les keep it simple...The ONLY perfect thing in this imperfect world is the perfect selfless/sacrifical love of God as demonstrated in Jesus...enabled in us by the Holy Spirit...God is perfect...GOD IS LOVE!!! Scripture is not perfect...it's message is!!! For it's message is it's author... And as for unity...one more time... Unity is a Given!!! It is not about denominations...it's in the hearts of those who have ears to hear the Spirit...and rise above differences to love one another as Jesus loves us...Love your enemys...some consider other christians there enemys...but we are to love them and pray for them and do good unto them...not talk about them...if you know more... then you should serve more not talk more...telling people why you can't love them... as they are... seperates you from God...Be perfect as you father in heaven is perfect...GOD IS PERFECT SELFLESS LOVE!!! In the love of Jesus... eRon

Greetings in Christ from sunny Kansas,

It seems that one of us does not understand the word "perfect" If you go back and re read the posts--what we "have" is that which "is in part" compared to that "which is perfect"

And, the Holy Spirit works now and it did then on Pentecost via the Word of God. Then it was oral--now it is written

So let's keep it simple-AND, LETS KEEP IT SCRIPTURAL....

That is the way of the Lord

Unity can only be achieved God's Way--When you have folks teaching over 200 ways in which to be saved--Unity is never a given--never a reality until it is achieved on God's terms.

I am sorry but thinking like this is what got us in this problem to begin with--with each of us thinking and believing that we can each come to God on our own terms..when we cannot.

Richard seeking finding Victory in God and in His Eternal Word


> Greetings Richard...as you state...

> "It seems that one of us does not
> understand the word "perfect"
> If you go back and re read the
> posts--what we "have" is that
> which "is in part" compared
> to that "which is perfect"

Why the slight? You start by putting things on and insult basis...Is this a search for truth?...a dialogue?...or do you feel your in a superior position?...of teaching everyone?...or just a rash striking out of your opinions?...Your posts were read and your conclusions are not scriptual...

> And, the Holy Spirit works now and it
> did then on Pentecost via the Word of
> God. Then it was oral--now it is
> written Romans 10:14 refutes this position...10:17... Faith comes not by reading but by hearing the word (Christ/rhema:utterance)

> So let's keep it simple-AND, LETS KEEP
> IT SCRIPTURAL....

So far scriptual...as was my last post...

> That is the way of the Lord

The way of the lord who isJesus...Who is God...Who is love...those who are in Him...love as He...and are made Perfect in His love...(see scripture reference below)

> Unity can only be achieved God's
> Way--When you have folks teaching over
> 200 ways in which to be saved--Unity is
> never a given--never a reality until it
> is achieved on God's terms.

Scripture Ephesians 4:3...Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit! unity is a given...we who are redeamed by Jesus are in Him there is only one Him...only one Spirit...in which we are made one...What keeps us apart is the selfish flesh...My way mentiality...independant and religious fervor destroy unity...for unity is given in the heart not the head...I do not have to like you...you may hate me...but We who follow Jesus must love everyone... especially the Brethern...Galatians 6:10

> I am sorry but thinking like this is
> what got us in this problem to begin
> with--with each of us thinking and
> believing that we can each come to God
> on our own terms..when we cannot.

No where can you show me that I said anything in anyway stating that you can come to God on your own terms...and again the problem is a selfish lack of love...for the Jesus in each other...1John4:12 thru 1Jonh 5:21...also PERFECT is described in 4:12

> Richard seeking finding Victory in God
> and in His Eternal Word

You have victory in Christ Jesus...We who follow all do...try finding Love! In the love of Jesus... eRon


Greetings in Christ from sunny Kansas,
> Why the slight? You start by putting
> things on and insult basis...Is this a
> search for truth?...a dialogue?...or do
> you feel your in a superior
> position?...of teaching everyone?...or
> just a rash striking out of your
> opinions?...Your posts were read and
> your conclusions are not scriptual...

My response--it is your right to say that they are found wanting--but just saying so don't cut it...You used no texts offered no proof other than a statement..Bible study cannot progress on that level..Now, can it?

> So far scriptual...as was my last
> post...

> The way of the lord who isJesus...Who
> is God...Who is love...those who are in
> Him...love as He...and are made Perfect
> in His love...(see scripture reference
> below)

My response--Sorry, but it cannot be Jesus in thatwhich is perfect--Go back to I Cor 13:8-10 and show us from the texts that it is as you say...Just saying so allows none of us to come to a better understanding..

you said
> Scripture Ephesians 4:3...Endeavouring
> to keep the unity of the Spirit! unity
> is a given...

My response--let's look at the whole text shall we--

Ephe 4:3 (KJS) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Look at the text--Unity as you say is a given but let's make sure we understand how it is given-- One body--one Spirit--even as we are called in "one hope of our calling--One Lord--One faith--one baptism.

This is God's basis for our unity--So we can agree--Unity is indeed a given--very specifically given...

we who are redeamed by
> Jesus are in Him there is only one
> Him...only one Spirit...in which we are
> made one...What keeps us apart is the
> selfish flesh...My way
> mentiality...independant and religious
> fervor destroy unity...for unity is
> given in the heart not the head...I do
> not have to like you...you may hate
> me...

My response--there can be no unity if we all love one another--and do not practise

2Tim 3:16 (KJS) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable [1]for doctrine, [2]for reproof, [3]for correction, [4]for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {throughly...: or, perfected}

Love--true love cannot ignore what is not right among ourselves--Unity is based on God's Word and "all of us" adhering to it.

It is not hard--except when folks want unity on their own terms...

you said but We who follow Jesus must love
> everyone... especially the
> Brethern...Galatians 6:10

My response--I certainly agree--but we cannot be "brethren" when we as a group teach over 200 different ways to be saved--when God says there is only ONE!

Love demands that we resolve these differences in favor of God and His Word.

> No where can you show me that I said
> anything in anyway stating that you can
> come to God on your own terms...and
> again the problem is a selfish lack of
> love...for the Jesus in each
> other...1John4:12 thru 1Jonh
> 5:21...also PERFECT is described in
> 4:12

1Joh 4:7 (KJS) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: or, has been born} 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the context of I Cor 13:8-10--Love is not a "in part" contrasted with the "perfect" go back and re read the texts..Thanks

> You have victory in Christ Jesus...We
> who follow all do...try finding Love!
> In the love of Jesus... eRon

My response--Love does not tolerate error Love cannot tolerate false actions..Love demands that all those things be examined.

Preaching love is not an excuse to excuse error or false teachings in the name of God.

That is why 2 Tim 3 16-17 helps guide us in this matter of love..

Here is what I actually said--
> I am sorry but thinking like this is
> what got us in this problem to begin
> with--with each of us thinking and
> believing that we can each come to God
> on our own terms..when we cannot.

to which you responded.. No where can you show me that I said anything in anyway stating that you can come to God on your own terms

What did I say--You are implying such by your words--That love covers the differences that exist among us that are so sharp--so decisive--that the only cure is to return to God's Word--

Richard seeking finding victory in Christ and in His Eternal Word.


Matt, greetings in Christ from sunny Kansas, Continuing on with I Cor 13:8-10 it is necessary to broaden the discussion-- It is necessary to talk about the passing of the supernatural spiritual gifts--because they could only be given by the Apostles..And, since we do not have them today..we do not have anything else that the apostles could have ever passed on--except for God's written word.

THE PASSING OF SUPERNATURAL GIFTS

The glossa gift in the New Testament-along with other miraculous signs served their purpose and passed away. Their purpose was to confirm the man and his message as being fromGod The abuse of the glossa gift caused tongues to be a sign of unbelief in the church at Corinth.

The perversion of the gift brought a perversion of its purpose. What was intended to be a sign to confirm God's new revelation became a sign of an evil heart of unbelief in Corinth where the gift was abused.

The possession of a supernatural gift does not guarantee spirituality. Corinth proves this.

Exercising the glossa gift is not a sign of anything today. The gift no longer exists. Since the gift does not exist, neither can its abuse exist. This does not mean that the glossa gift is no longer claimed.

It is. Men are being deceived into believing that they possess the real gift. This can not be. Such is longer possible if one accepts the testimony of the Scripture.

What is passing for the glossa gift today is no moreThan a psychological phenomenon which finds expression in ecstatic utterances. It is a counterfeit of the real thing. It is a delusion of the devil.

The purpose of the miraculous gifts was to confirm the revelation of God [1] Signs accompanied Jesus to confirm His Messiahship. [2] Signs accompanied the preaching of the gospel by apostles and prophets. [3] Unless there is another Jesus or another gospel, signs are not needed. It is true that men will arise claiming to be Christ. They will try to deceive with signs. They are not to be believed. [4] It is true that men will teach a perverted gospel, claiming a supernatural message from angels. They are to be anathema. [5] God's revelation of himself in Jesus Christ is sufficient. There is no need for another Christ to come. No signs are needed to confirm a new Christ. God's revelation of his will in the Scriptures is sufficient. No new scripture needs to be added. No signs are needed to confirm new Scripture. [6] There is no need for a Catholic church--It has absolutely no authority to exist--let alone do as Matt would have us believe--that they can thus make new doctrine and commands.. If this is true the Mormon revelation{accompained they believe by signs--would be as authoritive as the Catholic church}

Means of Obtaining Gifts Ceased. Genuine miraculous gifts, such as "tongue speaking," can not exist today. The means by which they were obtained are no longer available.

On the day of Pentecost and at the household of Cornelius men spoke in tongues after receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. These are the only two examples of Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament.

It was received by the apostles on Pentecost when the church was established. It was received by Cornelius and his household when the gospel was first preached to the Gentiles. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was never promised to others.

[1] Heb 2:3-4 [2]Jn 20:31 [3] Mk 16:19-20 [4] Matt. 24:24 [5] Gal 1:6-9 [6] Acts 2:1-5;10:44-46

There is no record of it being received by others. The external signs of the baptism of the Holy Spirit were (I) visible "tongues-like as fire," (2) audible "sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind," and (3) speaking with "other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance."

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was not in order to be saved. Neither was it a sign of salvation. It was a sign to show the sanction of God upon the activities of men when the gospel was first revealed to Jews and Gentiles.

The New Testament tells how men were able to speak with "tongues" and exercise other miraculous gifts after they had received the laying on of the apostles' hands.

Paul laid his hands on twelve men baptized at Ephesus who then spoke with tongues. Paul laid hands on Timothy in order that he might receive a gift of God. Philip the evangelist received the laying on of the apostles' hands and was able to work signs.

He could not transfer this power of working signs to other people. It was necessary for the apostles to come down from Jerusalem to do this.This was understood by those who saw the signs.

Now when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given......Acts 19:6--2 Tim 1:6--Acts 6:6-- Acts 8:6-- Acts 8:14-15-- Acts 8:18

There are no apostles today to bestow these miraculou: gifts. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not in existence today. Since these are the only two means by which the gift ofi tongues was received, the conclusion is evident. There can be no genuine gift of "tongue speaking" today as it was known the New Testament times. The gift ceased because the means ceased.

<> Paul Predicted the End of Gifts. He pointed beyond the time of miraculous gifts to a period when tongues would cease and knowledge and prophecy would pass away.

Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. "{this was discussed in post # 1}

Miraculous gifts were needed when the revelation of God was incomplete. They were to pass when that which is perfect is come.

Three things show that the miraculous gifts of the New Testament-including "tongue speaking"-no longer exist. (I) The need of such gifts ceased. (2) The means of obtaining such gifts ceased. (3) An inspired man predicted that such gifts would cease.

Any one of these points is sufficient to show that the 'tongue speaking" phenomenon today is not the same as that in the New Testament. <

Richard seeking finding victory in Christ and in His ETernal Word.


Greetings,

1 Cor 13:8-10 [RSV] 8Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; 10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

There is a position taken that that which is "perfect" is Scripture, and that 1 Cor 13:10 means that Tradition (Greek: paradosis) will be "gobbled up" by Scripture, so that there is no revelation passed on to us anywhere but in Scripture.

Is that really a Scriptural position; that which is backed up by Scripture? Certainly 2 Thessalonians 2 or 1 Corinthians 13 doesn't back that up. In fact, look at all the "gymnastics" that have to be gone through to even begin to show such a position. Not in any of Paul's letter's did he ever speak that Tradition would ever be wholly contained in Scripture alone.

2 Thess 2:15 "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

We are given no indication by Paul that at a future time all Tradition would be found in the Scriptures alone. On the contrary, Paul speaks of that which has been delivered to the Thessalonians already, more by oral statement than by written (which 1 and 2 Thessalonians expound on, not replace.) He speaks not of holding to a future canon of writings, but to that which they have already received.

Further, there is no inkling that Paul feels that the oral teaching is "imperfect" and the written is "perfect". On the contrary, he views both as being apostolic and authoritative - and thus says so in 1 Thess 2:13.

Luke, too, remains consistent with this idea of the writing as an addition to, not a replacement of, the oral teaching already received.

Luke 1:3-4 "[I]t seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent The-oph'ilus, 4 that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.

------ In addition to this, it is necessary to look at the context of the verse 1 Cor 13:8-10, to determine if it was speaking of the close of the canon, the death of the apostles as the end of the spiritual gifts.

1) Where is it noted that Tradition will cease with the Apostles? It is nowhere cited. And to apply that understanding to these verses does much violence to the text.

2) Paul speaks in chapters 12, 13 and 14 of the spiritual gifts....both before and after these verses - 13:8-10 - Paul explains that the Corinthians should pray for these gifts, for prophecy, wisdom, knowledge, tongues, interpretation of tongues, teaching, healing, etc. How does this fit with an idea that all this will go away with the death of the Apostles? To me, and I would be the Corinthians, and to many, many others throughout history and today, it simply doesn't. Why would any gifts be wanted that were going to cease in a short time (given that such a statement placed on the text were actually true)?

Fact of the matter is, it doesn't make sense. Corinth was a place of major paganism before Paul ministered there. At this time, they were placing much emphasis on the physical manifestations of the spiritual gifts. Paul simply exhorts them to seek the greater things - faith, hope and love - because these other gifts are not what is important - there is something greater. Faith, hope and love brings one to see God "face-to-face", not spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are given to the unbeliever...but faith hope and love are given to the believer. Perhaps we could say here that the "imperfect" is the spiritual gifts given to witness to the unbeliever, but the "perfect" are the greater gifts of faith, hope and love.

In the context, it certainly isn't speaking of Scripture.

In conclusion, we have seen that 1 Cor 13:8-10 does not mean that Scripture will "swallow up" Tradition, and it does not mean that Scripture is "perfect."

God bless, Matt


Matt, greetings in Christ from sunny Kansas,

Matt, do you have a computer Bible program with Stong's Numbering system on it. There are several software and shareware and free bible programs on the net that are available.

So that all of us can follow this--I am going to use them. For those of you who are not familiar with The STrong's numbering system it works like this.

The words in the Bible are all given a number which then can be used as a reference--to see where it is used again. Orginally Strong gave the meaning of the words associated with the numbering system. However, today all that is still Strong's is the numbering system. The translations of the words are by some of the best scholarship available today.

Now you used this text--

2The 2:15 (KJS) Therefore <686> <3767>, brethren <80>, stand fast <4739> (5720), and <2532> hold <2902> (5720) the traditions <3862> which <3739> ye have been taught <1321> (5681), whether <1535> by <1223> word <3056>, or <1535> <1223> our <2257> epistle <1992>.

Note that the number for "traditions" is <3862>

Now--the text under discussion--is this one--

1Cor 13:8 (KJS) Charity <26> never <3763> faileth <1601> (5719): but <1161> whether <1535> [there be] prophecies <4394>, they shall fail <2673> (5701); whether <1535> [there be] tongues <1100>, they shall cease <3973> (5695); whether <1535> [there be] knowledge <1108>, it shall vanish away <2673> (5701). {fail: Gr. vanish away} 9 For <1063> we know <1097> (5719) in <1537> part <3313>, and <2532> we prophesy <4395> (5719) in <1537> part <3313>. 10 But <1161> when <3752> that which is perfect <5046> is come <2064> (5632), then <5119> that which is in <1537> part <3313> shall be done away <2673> (5701). {done away: Gr. vanish away}

Now--Tradition<3862> is not found within the context of Paul"s teaching here on the cessation of the supernatural Spiritual Gifts. Folks use your own eyes--If you have your own bible program use it.

I am cutting and pasting once again--the meaning of perfect..Look at it carefully..

Now, the word translated "perfect" is TELEION. It is in the nominative case, singular number, and in the neuter gender

Arndt-Gingrich gives the defination as being "having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect. AG also suggests thathe term can sometimes mean mature,fullgrown and fully developed.

In His study of the word Perfect, R. L. Roberts brings together a number of authors in his study of the word.

Thayer has: 'Brought to its end, finished: wanting nothing necessary to completness;perfectMoulton-Milligan--'Literally havling reached its end; hence, full grown, mature...in good working order...complete, final.

Trench says--The various applications of teleion are all referable to the telos, which is its ground. The meaning of telos is given as: [1]end: most frequently of the termination or limit of an act or state{in the NT also of the end of a period of time, cl.teleute}According to these facts--Lenski--very aptly says that "when the complete shall come' refers to the "GOAL IN COMPARISION WITH WHAT IS STILL ON THE WAY" *******************************************************

If so, whatever, "perfect" means, it must be the goal, the completion, the perfecting of something yet unfinished, undeveloped, imperfect or "on the way."

Whatever the meaning of the word, it must carry with it the idea of "complete, mature or finished."

Now--when you do as Matt has and is attempting to do--make it refer to something other than the Completed Word of God i.e traditions--It cannot texturally be done.

It is important that we notice that the phrases "in part" modified "knowledge & prophecy" as miraculous gifts. It cannot be made to modify anything else here.

Here is a very large problem "in part" does not have any reference to --tradition--in any way shape or fomr.

It has to be added my men--who then use it to make their own doctrine. Folks I would not force anyone here to "do it my way" but you can with the information--make up your own mind.

The immediate context of "the perfect" refers to the passing of the supernatural spiritual gifts of knowledge and prophecy. Please note the passage with some of the words in CAPS for emphasis...

For we know IN PART, and we prophesy IN PART;but when that which is perfect is come, THAT WHICH IS IN PART shall be done away....now I know IN PART; but then shall I knowfully even as also I was fully known.

Folks, "the perfect" and the "in part" are in contrast That which is "in part" is but a "segment" of that which is "perfect." "The perfect" must be understood in terms of that which is "in part." The miraculous gifts of knowledgeand prophecies are what Paul consider to be "in part" therefore that which is "perfect" must be the completion of or the maturing of these gifts.

I am sorry Matt--but once again tradion is of no effect here..For you tradition is ongoing and changing--Paul is specifically talking about those two supernatural spiritual gifts and the fact that they are going to cease..

We need to understand the following... The early church was dependent upon oral revelation by holy apostles and prophets for its knowledge of the will of God. God placed the message in inspired men...enabling them to speak as the Holy Spirit gave them utterance.

Thus the word of God was revealed IN PART--GRADUALLY, UNTIL IT WAS "ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS{JD3} and written by inspiration as a full revelation of the divine word.

God used men in the first century full of the Holy Spirit--those upon whom the apostles had laid their hands--imparted the supernatural spiritual gifts upon them---until that what was "in part" the revelation of God's Word--was completed.

Since the death of the apostles and the death of all of those upon whom the apostles had laid their hands have been dead for hundreds and hundreds of years--In fact the Corinthians could expect the cessation of those gifts in their lifetime..that is why Paul told them they were going to cease--The completed revealed will of God would be given to man.

Now--the Catholic church--has done their very very best over the centuries to keep this completed or revealed will of God out of the hands of the people...But they could not.

You gotta ask yourself--why did the Catholic church burn and murder to keep God's Word out of the hands of the people..? You are entittled to your own answer..so I won't bore you with mine.

Now--you asked

Is that really a Scriptural position; that which is backed up by Scripture? Certainly 2 Thessalonians 2 or 1 Corinthians 13 doesn't back that up. In fact, look at all the "gymnastics" that have to be gone through to even begin to show such a position.

My response--gymnastics to whom? Certainly not to a student of God's Word. God's Word teaches us by [1] direct statements [2] commands [3] examples and [4] necessary inference.

Why are you trying to drag a word--not found in the context into the context--then say--Paul did not not say tradions would cease.

What you are overlooking--[1] is the context itself determines the meaning and application of said text--tradition is not in this text-- [2]Paul never states that Tradition" would continue--because traditions are not a part of the supernatural spiritual gifts being discussed in I Cor 13:8-10.

So here you are==trying to put "tradition" where it does not exist and then make an arguement for its continuation. That is the reasoning of human beings and it is wrong.

YOu said

Not in any of Paul's letter's did he ever speak that Tradition would ever be wholly contained in Scripture alone.

2 Thess 2:15 "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

We are given no indication by Paul that at a future time all Tradition would be found in the Scriptures alone. On the contrary, Paul speaks of that which has been delivered to the Thessalonians already, more by oral statement than by written (which 1 and 2 Thessalonians expound on, not replace.) He speaks not of holding to a future canon of writings, but to that which they have already received.

My response--We are not told that Tradition was ever going to survive--only that the completed will or Word of God would survive.

Yes, they had "oral traditions" but those oral traditions were fully "supported by the operation of the supernatural spiritual gifts operating in the lives of the early church so that they would not insert as you are now doing--the traditions and teachings of men.

With the cessation of the supernatural spiritual gifts---that which was in part was done away with--replaced by the completed word of God.

It is God's Word today that guides us--directs us--and, yes, even corrects us--Do you believe God? I Do! Read what the Inspired Holy Spirit filled Apostle tells them and us today about this..

2Tim 3:16 (KJS) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable [1]for doctrine, [2]for reproof, [3]for correction, [4]for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {throughly...: or, perfected}

you said

Further, there is no inkling that Paul feels that the oral teaching is "imperfect" and the written is "perfect". On the contrary, he views both as being apostolic and authoritative - and thus says so in 1 Thess 2:13.

My response--not according to Paul--You see, there is no inkling in I Cor 13:8-10 that tradition is ever--ever under consideration.

Now--Paul under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit told the Corinthians and us--that those supernatural spiritual gifts which "were--in part" were going to be replaced with that which is mature, or complete--which is the revealed will of God in Written form.

YOu said

Luke, too, remains consistent with this idea of the writing as an addition to, not a replacement of, the oral teaching already received.

Luke 1:3-4 "[I]t seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent The-oph'ilus, 4 that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.

My response funny thing about this..Because Luke did write it down--future generations also know--just as it was given orally. With the written inspired record--no need for the oral to survive and it didn't because with the cessation of the supernatural spiritual gifts--It didn't!!

YOu said ------ In addition to this, it is necessary to look at the context of the verse 1 Cor 13:8-10, to determine if it was speaking of the close of the canon, the death of the apostles as the end of the spiritual gifts.

1) Where is it noted that Tradition will cease with the Apostles? It is nowhere cited. And to apply that understanding to these verses does much violence to the text.

My response--your problem is once again--trying to put something in the text that is just not there--Tradition is not in the text--Paul is specifically talking and teaching that the supernatural gifts of Knowledge and Prophesy ceasing because they are replaced with that which is perfect--God's Word. Certainly not the tradition--which is not even in the text--is not referred to by an inspired apostle-- YOu said 2) Paul speaks in chapters 12, 13 and 14 of the spiritual gifts....both before and after these verses - 13:8-10 - Paul explains that the Corinthians should pray for these gifts, for prophecy, wisdom, knowledge, tongues, interpretation of tongues, teaching, healing, etc. How does this fit with an idea that all this will go away with the death of the Apostles?

My response-because in scripture we are told by the four teaching methods that only the Apostles could impart the supernatural spiritual gifts by laying on of their hands--personally.

Here is one example--

Acts 8:5 (KJS) Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. In Chapter six--this is one of the men on whom the Apostles had laid their hands.. Note what he does and why he does certain things..

Acts 8:6 (KJS) And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Here, we see the Word of God being confirmed--by the miracles which he performed.

We see this here Acts 8:7 (KJS) For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed [with them]: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.

The conclusion of the preaching of God's Word and the miracles to support the Word of God--is found here..

Acts 8:12 (KJS) But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

These folks became Christians--God's way

Now we come to the interesting part of this story--First, there should be absolutely no doubt that Philip had the supernatural spiritual gifts that he received when the apostles laid their hands on him and imparted the supernatural spiritual gifts.

Fact is--While he--himself had such gifts--He could not impart one single one of them to any of the new Christians there--Not one.

Acts 8:14 (KJS) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

This is at least a 42 mile walk--and why do they do it? Because if they were to receive any of the supernatural spiritual gifts--The apostles had to do it..

Acts 8:17 (KJS) Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Now, the text provides us with an excellent witness to these events..

Acts 8:18 (KJS) And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Now, you make it necessary to add another post dealing with the reasons of the supernatural spiritual gifts and why they were needed. I will try to do that today.

To me, and I would be the Corinthians, and to many, many others throughout history and today, it simply doesn't. Why would any gifts be wanted that were going to cease in a short time (given that such a statement placed on the text were actually true)?

My response--On the one hand we have the fact and the truth given by the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians..Tongues are going to cease in and of themselves..But the supernatural gifts of knowledge and prophesy" would cease when that which is perfect has arrived.

since He told these people that--It is reasonable to assume that in their lifetime--these gifts ceased since the means of replacing the supernatural gifts was no longer available..I.e the laying on of the hands of the Apostles--in this case Paul..

you said

Fact of the matter is, it doesn't make sense. Corinth was a place of major paganism before Paul ministered there. At this time, they were placing much emphasis on the physical manifestations of the spiritual gifts. Paul simply exhorts them to seek the greater things - faith, hope and love - because these other gifts are not what is important - there is something greater.

My response--make sense to whom..To someone who is desperating attempting to imput a word into the text that is just not there--Is not ever considered--tradition is not there--It is just not going to be a part of "that which is perfect" Only God's Word.

YOu said Faith, hope and love brings one to see God "face-to-face", not spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are given to the unbeliever...but faith hope and love are given to the believer. Perhaps we could say here that the "imperfect" is the spiritual gifts given to witness to the unbeliever, but the "perfect" are the greater gifts of faith, hope and love.

My response--No unbeliever receives the supernatural spiritual gifts until qualified by being a Christian. The exception to this is found in two places Acts 2 and Acts 10 Acts 2 given to the Jews and in Acts 10 to the Gentiles and done so DIRECTLY BY GOD.

Oh--context will not allow you you above conclusion --because faith, hope and love--ARE GOING TO EXIST AFTER THAT WHICH IS PERFECT HAS ARRIVED..They are not going to be replaced with that which is perfect..

You said

In conclusion, we have seen that 1 Cor 13:8-10 does not mean that Scripture will "swallow up" Tradition, and it does not mean that Scripture is "perfect."

My response--One thing you are absolutely correct on--I Cor 13:8-10 does not mean that Scripture will "swaallow up" Tradition Because tradition is NOT THERE.

For we know IN PART, and we prophesy IN PART;but when that which is perfect is come, THAT WHICH IS IN PART shall be done away....now I know IN PART; but then shall I knowfully even as also I was fully known.

Folks, "the perfect" and the "in part" are in contrast That which is "in part" is but a "segment" of that which is "perfect." "The perfect" must be understood in terms of that which is "in part." The miraculous gifts of knowledgeand prophecies are what Paul consider to be "in part" therefore that which is "perfect" must be the completion of or the maturing of these gifts.

Oral traditions nor the traditions of men do not become a part of that which is perfect..Just no way that is possible--because Tradition is not any part of the "in part" situation..

Richard Seeking finding Victory in Christ and in His Eternal Word


Matt, Greetings in Christ to all from sunny Kansas

I want to share some research with you on the glossa gift and the three purposes given for it in the NT.

There are three purposes of the glossa gift given in the New Testament.

The first and most evident is the confirmation of the new revelation of God spoken by inspired men. God gave a new revelation for man on the day of Pentecost.

It was confirmed to be from God because of the signs which accompanied the new revelation. This was the promise made to those who first preached the gospel: "These signs shall accompany them that believe.. .. They shall speak with new tongues.[Mark 16:17]

Mark said that this promise was fulfilled in the work of the apostles: "And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. [Mark 16:20]

Note--The Apostles fulfilled this work..there is no need for it to continue today under the umbrella of tradition.

It Is natural for men to question new revelation from God. The question is asked. Is the revelation really from God? Perhaps it is just the man's own ideas. Perhaps it is a delusion of the devil.

How can one know for sure? By signs! The One who empowered his servants to work signs and miracles is the Person who has the authority to give new revelation. God has always given signs with new revelation. Moses had them. The judges had them. The prophets had them. The New Testament writers had them.

This truth is confirmed by Hebrews 2:1-4. Hebr 2:1 (KJS) Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip. {let...: Gr. run out as leaking vessels} 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]; 4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? {gifts: or, distributions}

The author encourages his readers to give heed to the word which was first spoken by the Lord and was confirmed by those who heard. The author further says that God was also "bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit."

That which was spoken by the Lord was confirmed by both the apostles' witness and by signs. The message received its sanction as being from God by the bearers of the message working signs.

This principle of new revelation being confirmed with signs Is demonstrated on the day of Pentecost. Peter and the other apostles had new revelation to proclaim. God bore witness to this new revelation with signs--of which one was the gift of tongues.

One of Peter's proofs that his message concerning the resurrected Jesus was true is recorded in Acts 2:33 (KJS) Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this,which ye now see and hear.

The new revelation confirmed by signs which were seen and heard.

If the gift of tongues and other signs are still worked by the power of God, where is the new revelation?

If there is no new revelation, then how can these signs be from God? The Mormons are consistent on this point. They have always claimed "gift of tongues" and other signs. They also claim new revelationn confirmed by these signs. The Book of Mormon is a of this new revelation. It is supposed to be from God.

They claim the signs from God--like "speaking in tongues"- confirm it. If their signs are from God, so is their revelation. If their revelation is not from God, neither are their signs. They stand or fall together.

As an aside--This poses a difficult problem for the glossolalists {Pentecostals\charasmatics} today. If the glossolalia experience is really from God-then so is the "tongue speaking" claimed by the Mormons. If the "tongue speaking" of the Mormons is from God-then so is their new revelation, the Book of Mormon. The present day glossolalist is put into the position of accepting the Book of Mormon if they accept the Mormon giossolalia experience as being from God.

This same principle holds with the traditions being taught today by the Catholic church--where are the signs and miracles supporting new teachings and doctrine given by the Catholic church under the unbrella of Traditions..Because their traditions are not found in the written word

A second purpose of the glossa gift in the New Testament was for edification. The gift could edify if it were spoken to an audience who knew the language that was being spoken.

This happened on the day of Pentecost.{Acts 2:1-11} The gift could also edify when it was used in the presence of an interpreter.I Cor 14:27-28}

The gift was not to be used unless it would edify. This was the instruction that Paul laid down in the Corinthian church.{I Cor 14:26}

It would appear that this edifying purpose of the glossa gift was a secondary purpose. The primary purpose was that of confirmation as laid down by Jesus.

A third purpose can be discovered for the glossa gift by the way it was being used in the church at Corinth. Paul said:

1Cor 14:22 (KJS) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

The glossa gift, as it was being used at Corinth, was a sign to the unbelieving.

Tongues are not a sign to them that believe. First, they do not need a sign. Paul had already told the Corinthians it was not signs but preaching "Christ crucified" that leads men to salvation.I Cor 1:18-23}

The Jews wanted signs but Paul preached Christ. Believers do not need signs. Believers do not tempt God by trying to make God cater to their whims any more Ihan Jesus would tempt God by casting himself down from the temple.{Matt 4:5-7}

Second, believers prefer prophesying over tongues. They are more concerned with being edified than being amazed. Paul said, "prophesying is a sign. . . to them that believe."

Tongues are not a sign for the unbelieving and unlearned of the world. Paul showed this by using an illustration from the life of the church. The whole church-Corinthian Christians-. assembled and spoke in tongues.

Then an outsider--one unbelieving and unlearned--comes into the assembly while this glossa gift was being exercised. There is confusion and it appears that the church is made up of mad men.

The glossa gift would not help him to become a believer. He could not understand the glossa gift because he was "unlearned." He could not understand that it was a charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit be- cause he was an "unbeliever." Instead of producing faith, it would hinder faith.

On Pentecost the glossa gift was helpful to the "unbeliever" since they understood in their own language. In situations where the glossa gift was not understood it would not be helpful to "unbelievers."

"Tongue speaking" is not an evangelistic tool for converting those who do not understand what is being said. It is a hindrance rather than a help. Prophecy should be used to teach the unlearned and the unbelieving. Paul says: {Note in Corinth Speaking in tongues{done supernaturally} to preach and teach Jesus Christ Prophecy speaking [supernaturally] to preach and to teach Jesus Christ in "THEIR OWN LANGUAGE."}

If all prophesy, and there come in one unbelieving or unlearned, he is reproved by all, he is judged by all; the secrets of his heart are made manifest; and so he will fall down on his face and worship God, declaring that God is among you mdeed.[1COR 14:24-25]

To whom then are tongues a sign? ********************************

To unbelieving peopie of God who reject the ******************************************* plain and edifying prophecy. **************************** ****************************

The abuse of the glossa giff brought a change of its primary purpose.

Tongue speaking to the Corinthians was not a sign of their faith, it was a sign of unbelief. They like the unbelieving priests and prophets of Isaiah's day had rejected plain prophecy.

Men of strange tongues were to come to Jerusalem and be heard by the unbelieving priests and prophets in Isaiah's day as a testimony of their refusing to hear plain prophecy. Just so, the strange tongues of those who possessed the glossa gift at Corinth were a testimony of their refusal to give heed to plain prophecy .

Paul sees one of the purposes of tongues as a sign to the un believing people of God who placed edifying prophecy in a secondary position. This purpose is no doubt secondary since the primary purpose as given by Jesus seemed to be that of confirming new revelation.

Paul used this secondary purpose of the gift of tongues to show the unbelief of those who preferred tongue speaking to plain prophecy. Perhaps this says something to those who prefer a counterfeit "gift of tongues" to plain prophecy in the Scriptures today.

Again, this post helps us to see what the purpose of the supernatural spiritual gifts was to confirm the word of God. We see this for example in Acts 8..

In I cor 13 8-10 we are told that the supernatural spritural gifts of knowledge and being able to supernaturally preach and teach Jesus Christ in their own languge was going to cease.

That is because of the Written Word of God would thus allow men to preach and teach Jesus Christ in their own language--without the help of the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning. That which was perfect was going to replace the supernatural gifts of knowledge and preaching supernaturally in one's own language with that which would allow anyone to do so using the written word of God.

Richard seeking finding Victory in Christ and in His Eternal Word


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