Salvation Outside the Church (2)
Salvation Outside the Church
Continued from Page One...

There is no freedom except that which is given by God.

I am sorry for the hurt in your life which caused you to turn from full communion with the Church of God, for, within it lies the fullness of true freedom.

Your attitude on other posts, IMHO, represents a lack of charity which is to be afforded to all. All your other statements crumble under the weight of such uncharitability.

Matt


Friends,

It is important to keep in mind, as many of you already know, that the Church does not put herself above any, especially God. Rather, she proceeds from God, and is One with Him Who makes her holy - for she is the Bride of Christ.

A charge that Catholics believe themselves to be any better than any other person of another faith profession is absurd, as any who know anything about the Church can surely attest. It is those who do not know the Church, and have felt slighted by her, who have become her vociferous opponents. They raise arguments that mean NOTHING concerning the nature and truth of the Church.

Within the Church we find sinfulness, abuse, etc....but, it is her teaching - the Word of God - that sanctifies the whole of the Church, and calls us all to the name of Truth.

The priest who sins mortally wounds all those in the Church, but, it does not, in any way, alter the Truth that is proclaimed by the whole of the Church throughout her pilgrimage on Earth.

It is this that we must keep in mind when attacks come due to one's personal experiences with professed memebers of the Church. These experiences have a blinding effect on the one who is the recipient of such actions, but the Lord God never stops calling even those to Truth...and, as such, we must all look for truth, not based on the sinfulness that seems to surround us. Rather, we must strive to know full Truth, in spite of the sinfulness that surrounds us. *That* is what makes the Catholic Church the "true Church", not the measure of her members.

God bless, Matt


I'm wondering.. How many of the Apostiles belonged to the Catholic church?


I regret to tell you that you are wrong.

I am glad that I failed to become a priest.

That allow me freedom to learn that Love Is God, and he wants me also to be Love. That it is not in the Magisterium, but deep in all human hearths. When you learn to see the truth you will also find in almost every religion.

I am at peace as I quote: "There is not peace except the peace of God."
Seek you no further.
You will not find peace
except the peace of God.
Accept this fact,
and save yourself the agony
of yet more bitter dissapointments, bleak despair,
and sense of icy hopelessness and doubt.
Seek you no further.
There is nothing else for you to find
except the peace of God.


Dear Duy mara,

All of the Apostles belong to the Catholic Church.

Mac


How is it simplistic to say that Christ is the Head of the Body, that there is but one Christ, one Baptism, one Faith. Did not the Holy Spirit guide Saint Paul to say this.

Mac


Funny I do not remember ever reading that in the gospells. Is it true we can trace the Popes back to Peter, if so.. where can I find this list? Who followed Peter? When did the Church apoint bishops and priests and nuns. What were they called.

I read what Matt wrote starting this thread, however I did not get out of it, that what you all do. The Church is the body of Christ. All those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their savoir are in the body of Christ.

I am reminded of Jesus saying he would build the temple.. why couldn't they see he was speaking of the people and not the structure. What does Catholic mean... Unity.. Unity in Christ. We are one body. We are the body of Christ.


Funny I do not remember ever reading that in the gospells.

Ephesians 4:4-5 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

Is it true we can trace the Popes back to Peter, if so.. where can I find this list? Who followed Peter?

Here is a tract that gives such testimony from the Early Church fathers.

Peter's Successors

When did the Church apoint bishops and priests and nuns. What were they called.

They were called bishops and priests! TheGreek word for priest is presbuteros (for example in James 5). That word was transliterated into Latin as presbyter, which then in English became shortened to priest. That's why you never hear about "Catholic elders".

It is because Catholic priests are Catholics elders.

A verse relating to Bishops can be found in Titus 1:7. Nuns and monks discipline of celibacy as a suggested practice and later as a requirement for the clergy goes back at least to St. Paul (I Cor. 7:32-35). Consider what Jesus means when he praises those who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven (Mt. 19:12). Celibacy finds its roots in the admonition of Christ to his disciples to leave everything, including wives and children, to follow him (Mt. 19:26-29). The monastic tradition brought mandatory celibacy into the Church.

Hope this helps on these issues.


Only now do you *think* you are glad you were not "allowed" to become a priest; certainly back then you were greatly hurt by what you heard. It seems obvious that these "wounds" have not healed.

You are in my prayers,
Matt


Duy mara,

It is absolutely true the the Church is the Body of Christ, and that is something that is not denied by either the Catholic Church (proper) or by the members on this list (I am relatively sure).

The Church *is* certainly referring to the people....but, it is not without structure, as we see most clearly in 1 Cor 12. The Church is hierarchical.

What we come to, then, is that people outside the profession of Catholicism, while not falling necessarily completely outside the Body, are also not fully in it, and therefore do not directly benefit from the same graces available (though not necessarily received) by one professing Catholicism. This is the distinction that the Church has made traditionally over the centuries, regarding those who do not fully practice their Catholic faith. That is also the reason why some, who attend Mass, but deprive themselves of the other sacraments (graces) may have more difficulty in keeping to the Divine Will, than those who full accept them.

One who does not accept the sacraments at all, is certainly depriving themselves of those "helps" that the Lord and Christ Jesus gave as, in order that we may more perfectly live according to the Gospel which He came to reveal.

God bless, Matt


Matt:

We are all humans and we all err.

No, I was 16 years old when my mind told me that it shall be a better world than the fear mongering of the Roman Catholics, it was when I was researching for my Religion exam. It was during June July 1954. The study of the Social documents produced by Rome opened my eyes to fear mongering. The study of the Roman Catholic history opened my eyes to the social injustices that the Roman Catholics foment. I then said Thanks God for opening my eyes.

However, it was before that, that I began to be glad that I did not become a priest. I am sorry that I could not give you exactly the date, but it was on my second or third year of high school, when I was able to observe the degradation of moral values of many priests. I began to see that they were poor human beings despite that they were trying to pretend that were above the crowd.

I quote from: Gifts from a Course in Miracles

To mean you want the peace of God is to renounce all dreams. For no one means these words who wants illusions, and who therefore seeks the means which bring illusions. He has looked on them, and found them wanting. Now he seeks to go beyond them, recognizing that another dream would offer nothing more than all the others.

pAGE 35

I do not *think* that I am Glad. I am *really, really glad* that I could freely and independently say:

There is only one god and only one who made us to its image and therefore we are Love.

There are many religions but only one god, who is LOVE the are many sects and cults for each religion as there are many temples for each sect and cults but God who is LOVE is only one. And he gave us only one law The Golden Rule because he is LOVE and could not do otherwise.

We all humans are made equal to God's Image We all humans are made equal to LOVE Therefore ther is not difference on which religion or cult we practice, as far as we practice LOVE.

I wish that the Roman Catholics would do less fear mongering and accept GOD fore What it is LOVE.

However, I *think* that I am already too old to see a renovation like the one Pope John started
He sure Knew that GOD is LOVE


Dear Paul,
I agree with you that in the 1940's and 1950's there was a lot of fear in some of the way religion was presente in Catholic Schools. Do you rember that phrase "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom." I think that the fear of sinning kept many of us on the right track. Even though I have been wounded by many catholic within the church including some nuns, I would never give up the teachings of the Catholic Church. This is because no matter how many mistakes have been made there is still the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Since I was thirteen, I have been going to Mass on a daily basis when possible. The grace that comes from receiving the real bodey and blood of Christ is beyond description, and I would not trade it for anything. I believe in your sincerity, and I will pray for you. Perhaps if you listened to the EWTN network when those who have returned to Catholic Church are telling why they have returned, it would help you. In all my years of Catholic education, I have never heard a priest or sister put down another religion. It would be nice if other religion gave us the same respect. I will pray for you. May you thoughts be guided by the Holy Spirit, for where there is the Spirit of Love, all fear is driven out.


I am sorry you misinterpreted my message.

I said that your mind was simplistic, because you refuse to accept that there are many other people that do a great deal of good to humanity, but are not Christian.
Would you tell me that Ghandi will go to hell? and that those Christians war criminals from Ireland and Yugoslavia will go to Heaven?


If you read slowly, and carefully, you will see that Jesus judges the hearts of men. Our Lord told us that He would not leave us orphans, and He did not. He left us with His visible Church, His Sacraments, and sent the Holy Spirit to guide us in all Truth.

Jesus wants all to become members of His Body, His Church. He wants unity, not division. Since the Catholic Church traces it origin to Christ via the laying of hands on from Apostle to Apostle for 2,000 years, please demonstrate for me why any other christian religion is the TRUE Religion. This true religion could not have left us orphans, not even for a minute - Christ will be with us always even to the end of time. There has to be a Church, a physical place, where when 2 disagree, that can take the issue to Her, the Church (Matt 18:17). There is no other Church, but the Catholic Church. Seek Christ with an open heart, and you will find Him. He is in every Catholic Church.

Mac


The Golden Rule is the only law God gave us?

Lets say that this is true. Is there any Commandment, Old or New, that is not covered by the Golden Rule?

Can you murder without following the Golden Rule?

Can you covet, steal, lie.... without following the Golden Rule?

God's Commandments are here to stay. Breaking one is a grave rebellion against God, unrepented of, it condemns one hell.

God wants obedience. It's written throughout Sacred Scripture. Disobey and be punished.

See, in Sacred Scripture, what one must do to gain eternal life, and you will see obey. You will see also, how we are to strive on our journey to grow in holiness, perfection.

We are to love one another as God loves us. When we disobey, God punishes and calls us to repentance. Why would you think the God's Church would do less? You may see hate, but if you look very deeply, you will see love. The Church wants all to gain eternal salvation. Given that this is Her intention, look beyond what YOU think, and try to see with Her eyes. She wants you back, She wants you to be perfect, and She awaits with open arms your return.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us,

Mac


Paul,

I would certainly like to know which documents you are speaking of that promoted "fear mongering" by the Church.

Now, you mention the "moral degradation of priests", but I challenge that because, as I believe I mentioned on either this or another recent thread, the actions of any members of the Church do not, in any way, lessen the Truth of the Gospel. As you know, there are sinners everywhere, and neither the Scriptures nor the Church herself mentions anywhere that those who have received a vocation to the clergy are exempt from sin. What the Scriptures *do* attest to is that Truth will always be available to all; never will it disappear or be contradicted. The failures you witnessed were failures of humanity, not failures of the Church.

You posit that "God is Love", and I would not debate that fact, except that I believe that God is much more than that - despite my inability to express what He is, any more than to say "HE IS".

Let me ask you if you believe that you have, in turn, done precisely what you have accused "Catholics" of doing, in your expression of the "fear mongering of priests"..."they were poor human beings despite that they were trying to pretend that were above the crowd." You seem to state that all are capable of the same LOVE (which, also, I do not debate), but, in virtually the same breath, seem to posit that "Roman Catholics" or the "Roman Catholic Church" is not capable of the same Love. How different is that from what you accuse the Catholic Church of? Personally, I don't see a difference.

God bless, Matt


Hello Mac,

There are many who are born into the Church and yet do not know the Church. They either do not have the opportunity or in some cases (maybe most cases) the desire to learn the doctrines.


May Our Lord and Our Lady bless you,
De Maria

Those who have the opportunity, but do not act on such, to know the doctrines of our Lord, are culpable for such actions - and thus would fall OUTSIDE the realm of "invincible ignorance."

God bless, Matt


Hello Matt,

You're probably right. But considering that for half of my life, I fit that description, I won't condemn those folks who still do.

A friend of mine said that he was awakened when he read a book about Our Lady of Medjugorje, where she was quoted as saying "My children are dancing their way into hell."

May Our Lord and Our Lady bless you,
De Maria


Our Lord will judge (there I said it again (sing along)).

Not seeking the Truth, to the best of one's ability, won't be an excuse. We are all responsible to respond to God's grace, His calling. It is a universal truth, all are called. It's in our response that judgment comes.

Pray always,

Mac


Hello Mac,

Our Lord will judge (there I said it again (sing along)).

I agree 100%.

Not seeking the Truth, to the best of one's ability, won't be an excuse. We are all responsible to respond to God's grace, His calling. It is a universal truth, all are called. It's in our response that judgment comes.

I agree 99.9999%. However, Not seeking the Truth, to the best of one's ability, won't be an excuse, we can't even judge this. We don't know what one's best ability is. One's best ability might be that of a couch potato. There is only one Judge, as you said above.

The pull of the world is extremely strong. Some people, die before they have attained the strong enough conscience to resist. I, for one, consider myself lucky that I didn't die, before I realized the Truth. At least now, I believe I have a chance. We simply can not read hearts. Only God can.

Pray always,


Amen.


Bottomline, I agree with you. But I believe that some of us are saying on this post, that those who have been Catholic and left the Catholic Church are automatically condemned. I believe that is an oversimplification. Too many of those x-Catholics are good people. I don't know why they left, but I don't think that WE can judge whether they are condemned.


May Our Lord and Our Lady bless you,
De Maria

Here are a few gems of fear mongering:

There is not salvatiopn outside of the Catholic Church.

Only those blessed by the Catholic Church are going to Heaven. (The church used to auction the indulgences or were just some corrupted priests who did it).

The is not worst blind that those who do not want to see.

I wish you will receive a little bit of humility and will not be so arrogant in your absolute dogma.

After all you are a human being, aren't you? Human beings do make mistakes, I do all the time.

But one thing I am sure of of:

God is love, and made men to his image (love) Therefore, all men are equal despite their colour of skin or what vehicle (or religion) they use to accept and get closer to LOVE (god).

That is not in your magisterium, because that is the common denominator of all the religious beliefs.


The Golden Rule is the only law God gave us?

Yes it is for me and many others, because it includes all the other laws.

Lets say that this is true. Is there any Commandment, Old or New, that is not covered by the Golden Rule?

No, the golden rule properly applied with love includes all the other rules.

Can you murder without following the Golden Rule?

Of course, but you could not murder if you followed the Golden Rule.

Can you covet, steal, lie.... without following the Golden Rule? Of course, but you couldn't if your love of God makes you follow the Golden Rule. On the other hand, here in Canada Bishops, priests. ministers and brothers have been sent to prison for negative actions against fellow human beings that many of them consider inferior. That is the difference between dogma and freedom.

God's Commandments are here to stay. Breaking one is a grave rebellion against God, unrepented of, it condemns one hell.

That is good for people who prefer dogmatic slavery to freedom to love God in an unrestricted way. Also people who deny the principle that we are made to the image of God prefer to think that God made them sinful and bad, that is somebody else choice not mine.

God wants obedience. It's written throughout Sacred Scripture. Disobey and be punished.

Yes God wants us to obey the Golden Rule, but he is so magnanimous that he/she give us freedom of choice. I wish you could give me scientific proof, other than dogmatic fear mongering, that God Say So. To me God is much more Loving that the image you pretend to force on me.

See, in Sacred Scripture, what one must do to gain eternal life, and you will see obey. You will see also, how we are to strive on our journey to grow in holiness, perfection.

I wish to obtain scientific proof that the Sacred Scriptures are correct, I know of more than one academic publication that provide as much scientific proof as it is possible nowadays, that the Old Testament and the New Testament are neither accurate, nor reflect reality.

We are to love one another as God loves us.

THAT IS THE GOLDEN RULE

When we disobey, God punishes and calls us to repentance.

that is not the golden rule

Why would you think the God's Church would do less? You may see hate, but if you look very deeply, you will see love. The Church wants all to gain eternal salvation. Given that this is Her intention, look beyond what YOU think, and try to see with Her eyes. She wants you back, She wants you to be perfect, and She awaits with open arms your return.

ARE YOU SURE? According with the Catholic Magisterium, which is not debatable, there is not salvation outside of the Church ASccording with the love of God all men are equall and have an equal chance to reach the heart of GOD I AM A WONDERFUL CHILD OF GOD, he made me FREE, and on my own free will I choose to be positive on my thoughs when I was 19. I was not a believer them.
On my own free will I accepted the fact that God is LOve and that Love is the only law. That make all men equally free, and all the religions an equal vehicle to reach the LOVE OF GOD.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us,

Thank you for your prayers, I need all them, but I also prayers from Muslins, Sikhs, Jews, Non Catholics Christians Budhists, Bahai's and any other denomination.


I do say so, because I see it every day.

Archbishop Hepner of Vancouver British Columbia approved a Catholic official newsletter that said, more or less: IT IS GOOD THAT SOME DOCTORS THAT PRACTICE ABORTION ARE BEING KILLED BECAUSE IT WILL SCARE THE OTHER ONES AND it WILL STOP Abortions.

iT WAS ON ALL THE NEWSPAPERS AND MAGAZINES OF cANADA.

That was not a human isolated mistake, but the official voice of the church, approved by the official head of the Roman Catholic Church on this neck of the woods.

That is why I speak up, I am a freeman I wish that I could at least help one person to pull the veil over their eyes.


If you read slowly, and carefully, you will see that Jesus judges the hearts of men. Our Lord told us that He would not leave us orphans, and He did not. He left us with His visible Church, His Sacraments, and sent the Holy Spirit to guide us in all Truth.

Jesus wants all to become members of His Body, His Church. He wants unity, not division. Since the Catholic Church traces it origin to Christ via the laying of hands on from Apostle to Apostle for 2,000 years, please demonstrate for me why any other christian religion is the TRUE Religion. This true religion could not have left us orphans, not even for a minute - Christ will be with us always even to the end of time. There has to be a Church, a physical place, where when 2 disagree, that can take the issue to Her, the Church (Matt 18:17). There is no other Church, but the Catholic Church. Seek Christ with an open heart, and you will find Him. He is in every Catholic Church.

Mac

That is your dogmatic choice. I am not dogmatic, I am a free wonderful child of God made to the image of God, who is Love. If two persons disagree on a dogmatic point it is illogical to take them in front of a court that is already biased to one side. That is a Cangaroo Court. I will leave it to the wisdom of GOD to decide if the wonderful children of him that he made to his image, shall be free to LOVE GOD in whichever way they apply with love the GOLDEN RULE, or must be enslaved and brain washed by dogmatism and fear mongering. The latter applies to all the religious groups that do it.


That would be a horrible thing to read. I can't see it as being official teaching of the Catholic Church. If it were the actual meaning, I think the true teachings of the Church would not agree with the statement. The media often twist the news.


In this particular case, the media DID NOT DISTORT THE ACTUAL PUBLICATION BUT PHOTOCOPIED IT

I agree that it was a horrible thing to say

As horrible as those that follow the Magisterium and said that people who practice the Golden Rule outside of the Roman Catholic Church would not be saved.

The latter is spiritual murder of Non Catholics, and fear mongering.


Do you know where I might be able to read that report?


Paul,

It seems as if you have done a lot of thinking about what it is that you don't like about the Catholic Church, or, more precisely, what it is that you think is the Catholic Church.

Perhaps you could share with us one example of where the Church has gone astray in its official teachings on faith and morals?

God bless,

Rich


A correction of fact:

Archbiship *Exner* (not Hepner) of the Vancouver Archdiocese did not write a letter to the effect of the quote you made.

The editor of a Catholic newsletter printed an editorial which was widely reprinted (completely out of context) by the secular media.

The paper later issued a statement of clarification - not a retraction - of the misinterpreted article.

You have wrongly accused an Archbishop (whose name you do not know) of writing an article he did not write, and which was widely misquoted.

I know that you have some anger towards the Church. However, I would suggest that perhaps study of inaccurate material may contribute to the problem, and not to resolution.


Here is the article in question. It was written by the lay editor of the newspaper and not endorsed (in terms of the contentious passage) by the Archbishop Exner. Editorial

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