Thank you for clearing up that misuderstanding.
As horrible as those that follow the Magisterium and said that people who practice the Golden Rule outside of the Roman Catholic Church would not be saved.
Where is it taught that there is no one outside of the Roman Catholic Church who will be saved?
Please read your own forum and you will find your answer, I am against that discriminating attitude, because I love all human beings, despite the colour of the skin, the language they talk or the religion they practice. I was under the impresion that by being in this forum you knew what the title of this forum is: SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH
There are many supporters of the church doctrine in this forum that would like to help you find what you want, I would like to guide you to find ideas and facts that might support the point of view that: YES THERE IS SALVATION OUTSIDE THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
pLEASE READ CAREFULLY
i did not accuse anyone, you are a good Catholic by putting on somebody mouth what you want but that was not there. You are a dogmatic Catholic that can not see beyond the Magisterium and inflexible enough to reject other human beings ideas and religions.
I am free liberal mind person who does makes mistakes but does not accept your fear mongering business. My point is that the publication was and is an official publication of the Archbishop of Vancouver, does not matter what his name is. I read several replies from the editor acusing that he was taking out of context I do not believe that he was taken out of context. I did noy see any apologies from the newspapers the TV stations or the radios. The blindest person is the one that does not want to see.
History can provide you with numeours samples if you can find text that are not Roman Catholics. Read them with same care and attention as you read the dogmatic writings.
I do believe that most of the problems of the church are not originating from Jesus or the most basic beliefs of Christianity. I do believe on God, which is the same one you believe on. But it is also the same one, that other religions believe on. I do accept and profess the golden rule, that is the same for many religions besides the Christians.
I has been a Catholic and study the dogmatic books for many years. The reason for this forum is SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH
Many dogmatic messages say that there is not salvation outside the church, I do believe the contrary.
I am an old grandpa tired of being at the keyboard. Please help me by reading the previous messages.
May the love of God enter in your heart.
I think that there is somebody else in this forum that knows a lot about that sad incidence he even corrected my spelling of the bishop's name but the best source is either the newspaper Vancouver Sun that you could find on libraries, or the TV stations web sites.
CBC and CTV, the might be cbc.ca or ctv.ca
they will guide you to obtain what you want.
Sorry the tired old granpa has to go to bed.
"History can provide you with numeours samples".
Perhaps you can humor me and provide me with one.
Catholics do not view Dogma as chains, restricting our freedom. Dogma frees us. We know, without doubt, that Our Lord is present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity whenever the Holy Sacrifice of theMass is offered. We know, without doubt, that our sins are forgiven in the Confessional.
Knowing and understanding are different.
Faith is kind of like this. As a father and grandparent you will see the connection. Your wife KNOWS that your children are yours, but you, as husband, must have faith. If you have doubt (which I'm sure you don't), you can have a test done.
The Catholic test is Dogma.
It frees us, and comforts us. Oh the Great Love of God, to give us recourse to Truth, and to assure us.
Peace and goodwill to you,
"of Vancouver British Columbia approved a Catholic official newsletter"
I'd have to check my own copies and see whether or not it is the official diocesan newsletter or not. It the best of my recollection (a qualifying statement) the Archbishop is not on the editorial or oversight board for that paper.
"that said, more or less: IT IS GOOD THAT SOME DOCTORS THAT PRACTICE ABORTION ARE BEING KILLED BECAUSE IT WILL SCARE THE OTHER ONES AND it WILL STOP Abortions. "
Yes - there was a statement similar to that which was quoted. What was *not* quoted were the following paragraphs that stated explicitly that the killing was wrong (he called it a sin) and that we should not seek to benefit from it. This added context was never reported by the secular media. The sum context was that he deplored the action, not supported it. (Although one could wish he'd framed his logic better.)
Nor did they report the clarification - published in the same newspaper - one or two weeks later.
My objection was that you seemed to place squarely on the shoulders of the Archbishop a matter for which he does not seem to have been responisble, and that you were unknowingly perpetuating an error of fact.
"iT WAS ON ALL THE NEWSPAPERS AND MAGAZINES OF cANADA. "
It missed the small local papers. You exaggerated a trifle.
"That was not a human isolated mistake, but the official voice of the church, approved by the official head of the Roman Catholic Church on this neck of the woods. "
I think that you will find that the Archbishop is not a member of the editorial board. While he is the spiritual/admnistrative leader, he is not responsible for the actions of individuals. And to be honest, I have never seen him use that paper for a platform for any personal agenda (although I could be wrong, I wasn't looking for it.)
If you look back, I linked to the article. And because the website carries only the editorials, and because the clarification was not an editorial, it is not online. If I find a copy, I'll post it. (But I probably can't, my copy of that edition is probably long gone.)
ARE YOU SURE? According with the Catholic Magisterium, which is not debatable, there is not salvation outside of the Church
Paragraphs 169, 846 and 847 of the CCC respectively state:
169. "Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: 'We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.'[Faustus of Riez, De Spiritu Sancto 1, 2: PL 62, II.] Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith."
"How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16 ; Jn 3:5 .] "
847. "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.] "
I think many of us pass over these words, "...through no fault of their own...."May Our Lord and Our Lady bless you,
Well, this has certainly been an exercise in humility...
I wrote a post of apology - only to find it had not posted - and so I find myself doing so again. Twice the contrition!
I am writing to apologize for an error I made. I corrected PaulEvar - perhaps a bit sharply - for making statements without completely checking his facts. I then went on to make a statement I had not checked - and discovered that I was wrong.
I posted that the follow-up clarification to the BC Catholic article was not online because it was an article, not an editorial. I was wrong. The follow up editorial is as follows:
Reflections on past editorial
This was an error in scholarship on my part and I apologize. I further checked my statements and no, the Archbishop is not listed a being on the editorial board or any oversight board for the BC Catholic. However, yes, it is the official newspaper of the Archdiocese and as such, could be viewed as the views of the Church.
I would suggest that anyone who wonders what the Archdiocese in Vancouver is saying should read the first editorial, titled "Killing Abortion Doctors won't end violence" (or something very similar). Had the secular media included that title, it would have been apparent that the contentious line or two had been taken out of context.
Yes, the misinterpretation was widely (but not universally) quoted nationwide. However, there were some writers (one was in the BC Province) who took the time to read the entire article and observe that the 'inflamatory' statement was out of context and that in fact the article called for an end to violence. These articles were not so widely reported, either nationwide nor in this forum.
In short, at no time did the Archbishop personally, or as the voice of the Church in Vancouver, or via the official newspaper - ever condone the killing of anyone - unborn or doctor.
Here are a few gems of fear mongering:
There is not salvatiopn outside of the Catholic Church.
It would appear that you have put a strict definition on this, in which case you would be misrepresenting what the Catholic Church states in this doctrine. Salvation is a gift of God for those who have faith (not mere intellectual assent to SOME truths).
Can a non-Catholic be saved? YES!
Don't know what "fear mongering" there is in that.
Only those blessed by the Catholic Church are going to Heaven.
Completely untrue; perhaps you should read a bit more on Catholicism, instead of the Protestant versions of what "Catholicism" is.
(The church used to auction the indulgences or were just some corrupted priests who did it).
Please explain your understanding of the concept of indulgences. I would venture to guess that it is not the definition that the Catholic Church holds.
I wish you will receive a little bit of humility and will not be so arrogant in your absolute dogma.
Have I come to your "house" and misrepresented those things that you believe in, in order to present my agenda to those who are in attendence?
After all you are a human being, aren't you? Human beings do make mistakes, I do all the time.
I am a human being, and I do make mistakes. However, when discussing theological issues, I do not rely upon my own personal ideology regarding certain doctrine of our Lord, but defer to the whole tradition of the Church.
But one thing I am sure of of:
God is love, and made men to his image (love) Therefore, all men are equal despite their colour of skin or what vehicle (or religion) they use to accept and get closer to LOVE (god).
I do not dispute that God is love, or that all men are equal. What I do dispute is that man can rely solely upon his own capacities - i.e. any "religion" that he chooses - to achieve understanding and, therefore, communion and community with God.
You agree with what I dispute as well, because you posit that the Catholic Church is not a "religion" by which one can be saved. This is clear from your argumentation against her and her doctrines.
That is not in your magisterium, because that is the common denominator of all the religious beliefs.
This is conjecture. You need to prove this statement. Besides, you never did give me the "social documents" of the Church, which promoted the "fear mongering" that you conjecture exist. Perhaps you can do that soon, huh?
God bless, Matt
I'd like the citation for that quote from the Archbishop please.....
I certainly desire to have a civil conversation of facts with you, concerning Catholic dogma, etc. but, you seem insistant on spreading misinformation on this thread.
Perhaps (as Rich suggested) you'd like to discuss actual teachings of the Church, and not your personal viewpoint - apart from that of the official teaching - on what such teachings actually teach.
Despite my attempts, and the attempts of others, to correct your erroneous interpretation of "Salvation outside the Church", you persist to say that even those on this board hold that non-Catholics cannot, in any way, be saved. THAT IS NOT THE POSITION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, NOR THE POSITION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
Therefore, I must assume that your decisions regarding the Catholic Church are misinformed, and should not be considered accurate by any who read your posts. I am not assured of my personal position...but rather, I am assured by God of His Church's position - which is not the position of any one member of it, but of the whole.
God bless, Matt
Back a few posts on this thread I printed links to both the original editorial and the follow-up. Let me know if you have trouble accessing them.
Paul Evar' wrote:
YES THERE IS SALVATION OUTSIDE THE ROMAN CATHOLIC
Finally, you have proclaimed a true Catholic teaching. Thank you!
God bless, Matt
Thanks for posting that....
I had not read your post before posting my comment.
It seems that the OPINION expressed in this EDITORIAL, also upheld the teaching of the Church, which is that violence is never justified - even against evil - unless it is in defense of one's own life. For a clearer picture of that, one should look for the threads that Zenas, Bob J, Anselm (and some others) have discussed regarding the idea of "A Just War" - I'm not sure what thetitle of the thread is.
Slander certainly is not an expression of love....now is it?
God bless, Matt
I don't believe the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is only for Roman Catholics. I don't think you will find members on this site believing that either. If you would share with me where you read that the Catholic Church teaches only Catholics will be joining God in heaven, I would like to read that. Thank you for your time.
Sorry, I do not have time to reread the entire forum, but they are several messages. The reason I do not have time is because I am 10 hrs at day at the hospital with my wife who is sick, please pray for the two of us.
I do believe that prayers from believers of any religion will help.
Everyone choose the kind of freedom they wish to have. Everyone choose the kind of chains they wish for their prison. Nothing is right or worng, everything is relative. Only God=Love is true the rest are shadows.
My purpose was to activate the discusion, done. my goal is to avoid negative, fearful vengeful, or resentful comentaries, I did not notice and I got in the middle of it, it is time to leave the field.
Our Lord is the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
The is only one Truth, and that is Jesus Christ. He is not relative, He is Absolute.
Truth is Absolute.
While we enjoy, by God's Love, a certain, and broad freedom, this freedom is limited. We are to keep the Commandments of God, not as we choose, this one or that one, but rather all of them. To reject God's commands is to reject God and thus we bring upon ourselves condemnation.
How do we gain salvation? Deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Jesus. Do as He did, His Fathers Will. Hate the sin, but love the sinner.
Peace my friend, and I will pray for you and your wife.
The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the Head of this Body. The body contains members. These members are the Church Triumphant, that is to say, the Saints is Heaven. Also members of the Church, are the Suffering Church, the souls in Purgatory. These members are those who have souls that are justified, yet do not (as yet) have perfect love of God thorough the consequence of sin. With the help of our prayers, we help these souls become perfected so that their suffering might be shortened. There is finally, the Church Militant, that is to say the soldiers of Christ here on earth. We are to keep the Commandments of God, to grow in holiness, to deny ourselves, pick up our crosses, and follow Christ. To proclaim the Good News.
There is but One Head of the Body, Christ, and, only one Body, His Church.
There is no salvation outside of the Body, which is the Church (Triumphant, Suffering and Militant). Since Jesus will judge the hearts of men, and no one else is capable of this judgement, those who have not entered the Church Militant, and thorough no fault of their own, have done God's Will, can gain salvation. Salvation means that they become members of the Church Triumphant, which is the same Body. Is there salvation outside of the Church? No, it is a dogma of Faith. The Church has always held this to be true, and always will.
God wants all to enter His Church through Baptism. He wants to give us His Grace in the Sacraments. He wants us to live in peace, and love one another. He wants the Church Militant to be united. God does not ask for the impossible. Some things are hard, but never impossible. That we may be one.
If this is unclear in any way, I ask forgiveness.
Yes, Paul, I will pray for your wife and for you. I see God is already blessing the two of you with you being there with her at the hospital. Your presence must be a strength to her.
I still say to you that not all those who will spend eternity with the Father in heaven were Roman Catholics while on earth. It saddens me to think you believe the Roman Catholic Church teaches that only those who call themselves Catholics can receive salvation.
Peace and Christ's blessings on you and your wife,
I'm not sure if you've read "Spirit of Catholicism", but I'm currently in the middle of chapter 3...Christ and the Church. Absolutely awesome -- though I have to go back and re-read it to fully grasp the wealth of wisdom that is there. Perhaps this is something that you and all could think about. (I'm not writing this as a contradiction to anything you've written, but rather for further understanding and contemplation.)
Karl Adam states that all of humanity was contained within (the first) Adam, and thus, when he chose against life, against God, all of mankind effected the same loss, because all mankind recieved their humanity from (the first) Adam. In the same way, Jesus, the second Adam, contained within himself, restored humanity. For this reason, one must actually be in Christ Jesus to benefit from this perfected (restored) humanity - and thus receive entrance into heaven.
That is what I've gotten so far, and I haven't had time to develop it further, but I think that's the reason why we need to be in the Body of Christ - wholly obedient - in order to be "saved."
As a side note, it certainly gives me a new take on what I heard (on audio) of the Screwtape Letters....as it seems that this "salvation by faith alone" theology is precisely what Satan wants, and many are perishing because of it.
God bless, Matt
I hope that my presence helps Mary to get better faster.
Thank you for your message, I am glad that some catholics are more flexible and universalists, than the ones I grew up within. I have a very good friend who is a terciarian Franciscan but could not accept that there is salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.
I prefer my freedom of choice and I am against organized theocracies were everything is digested for me and then regurgitated. That make me a kind of protestant, doesn't it?
Thanks again for your prayers.
Thank you for your prayers
I value them as much as those from friends and family who are Budhists, Baha'is, Jews and Protestants.
We must have to agree that we are different but both we are wonderful children of God. You choose your path I prefer my freedom and having access to the goodness of all the religions not just a single one.
May the love of God reside in your heart and in the heart of all your loved ones.
Yes, Paul, I believe your presence is important to you wife Mary at the hospital. Studies show that premature babies who are held (if possible) or simply stroked for those who can't be held, grow and improve much better than those left alone in the little beds. There is an important part of human interaction in our whole well being. Even when our bodies are failing us, the human interaction helps keep our mental health up and helps increase our whole being. With our own prayers and prayers of others, we improve our spiritual sides. Together, the physcial help at the hospital, the mental help you provide, and the spiritual aspects of prayer will all benefit your wife. You are a great blessing to your wife.
I will keep you in my prayers because you have a big responsibility too. It must be hard for you to see your wife as ill. The stay at the hospital where the days can seem endless can be draining on the sponse as well as the patient.
You mentioned in an earlier post that you could not become a Don Bosco priest because you were born out of wedlock. I don't know what a Don Brosco priest is. Would you explain it a little when you have time? I don't understand why any order of the priesthood would exclude a person based on the marriage status of the person's parents at the time of their conception or birth. I think God loves all his children, and that being born out of wedlock is simply a legal matter and not a matter of God in that he would turn his back on the child. Someone within the Catholic Church lead you to believe that the Catholic Church was unaccepting of you; that you were not an equal human being. I would like you to know that I am sorry this was taught to you. I want you to know that God loves you as he does all children. I am just one member in the Body of Christ. However, I want you to know I believe the Catholic Church does not see you as a lesser person because of the legal marital status of your parents at the time of your birth.
I think it is horrible that you wanted to be a priest and were not accepted because you were born out of wedlock. I also think it is ironic that while discussing your being denied the sacrament of Holy Orders, we are discussing your vocation in the sacrament of Matrimony. The window towards priesthood was closed on you for the wrong reason. However, I think God lead you were He wanted you to be, with your wife, Mary.
See, Paul, I believe if you would have come to this forum attempting to understand the Catholic position, rather than attacking a position that neither we, nor the Catholic Church, hold (even though some Catholics do hold it - apart from the actual teaching), we may have had a better dialogue. It is my hope that we may have clearer and more productive dialogues in the future. My apologies if I have seemed harsh or offensive; please try to see it from my side, though, as one who's beliefs were under attack, and being misrepresented.
I know that the situation with your wife must be very stressful on you. I know that similar situations with my own loved ones have been difficult.
You and your family will be in my prayers.
God bless, Matt
How come you are so fearful?
The Forum name was my goal. You must understand that I grew up as catholic I was always on the honor roll on 12 years of catholic school and in grade 12 I won the gold medal on religion studies among the catholic schools in a city that then did have 17 million people in a catholic country.
I am not ignorant of Catholic dogma and Magisterium.
The name of the forum attracted me. My point was yes there is salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church, and even my friend who is a terciarian franciscan thinks that is not possible, I grew up being told that that is not possible and all the ones that attacked me were insulted with my sting.
I will tell you what I think, and I quote from the book "Gifts from a Course in Miracles"
"If you attack error in another, you will hurt yourself. You cannot know your brother when you attack him. Attack is always made upon a stranger. You are making him a stranger by misperceiving him, and so you cannot know him. It is because you have made him a stranger that you are afraid of him. Perceive him correctly so that you can know him."
Any concept of punishment involves the projection of blame, and reinforces the idea that blame is justified. The result is a lesson in blame, for all behavior teaches the beliefs that motivate it."
I quote because I noticed that most catholics in this forum can not accept ideas unless they see them written by the magisterium. It have been decades since I opened a bible but there was one follower of Jesus that could not accept the word of those who believe in Jesus resucitation or was more than one?
If you have had the love of God in your heart it could not have made any difference whatever I said or I did. If you attacked, you shall know why, I am afraid that your defences are so strong that you could not consider that my quote above, could even deserve to be analized, because it is not approved by the Dogmatic bosses from Rome.
Thank you for your prayers even the catholic prayers are positive actions that made miracles.
May the love of God reside in your heart unrestricted and completely tolerant to those who seem to disagree with you because we all human beings are wonderful children of God.
I am not, absolutely not hurt by your attitude, it was a very good learning experience to relive the feelings of the thousands who were killed by the Catholic inquisition. It shows me how negative feelings could grow from dogmatic restrictions like the killings between islamics sects in Iran and Irak and of Christians sects in Ireland.
Yes, Paul, I believe your presence is important to your wife Mary at the hospital. Studies show that premature babies who are held (if possible) or simply stroked for those who can't be held, grow and improve much better than those left alone in the little beds. There is an important part of human interaction in our whole well being. Even when our bodies are failing us, the human interaction helps keep our mental health up and helps increase our whole being. With our own prayers and prayers of others, we improve our spiritual sides. Together, the physcial help at the hospital, the mental help you provide, and the spiritual aspects of prayer will all benefit your wife. You are a great blessing to your wife.
MY WIFE AND I WE DO BELIEVE ON YOUR THOUGHT, I HOLD HER HAND AND READ TO HER KIND, FEARLES POEMS FROM THE BOOK 'GIFTS FROM A COURSE IN MIRACLES'
I will keep you in my prayers because you have a big responsibility too. It must be hard for you to see your wife as ill. The stay at the hospital where the days can seem endless can be draining on the sponse as well as the patient.
IT IS NOT HARD AS YOU THINK IT MAY BE BECAUSE WE ARE NOT ATTACHED TO OUR BODY AND YOU DO CAN NOT ATTACH YOURSELF TO LOVE YOU EITHER ARE LOVE OR you are NOT
I quote from "GIFTS FROM A COURSE IN MIRACLES" Where two have joined for healing, God is there.
Be not restless, for you to undertake a quiet journey to the peace of God.
You mentioned in an earlier post that you could not become a Don Bosco priest because you were born out of wedlock. I don't know what a Don Brosco priest is. Would you explain it a little when you have time? I don't understand why any order of the priesthood would exclude a person based on the marriage status of the person's parents at the time of their conception or birth.
John Bosco is an italian Saint as per the Roman Catholic Church, who created schools for poor children. MY friend Joaquin Micheletto, is also a Calabrini priest who was deported to Brazil
by the Bishop of Vancouver, because he had the courage to give him his peace of mind,
that was in 1975, and we still friends. He never asked me to go to church, but we were fishing buddies and discussed philosophical ideas.
I think God loves all his children, and that being born out of wedlock is simply a legal matter and not a matter of God in that he would turn his back on the child.
Being born out of wedlock is neither a legal matter, nor a religious matter, when you consider that we are all wonderful children of God. But I have been accused of being communist when I openly discused my philosophical ideas at a University in Argentina, by who? by the priest who was teaching the course. That eventually force me to leave the country.
Someone within the Catholic Church lead you to believe that the Catholic Church was unaccepting of you; that you were not an equal human being. I would like you to know that I am sorry this was taught to you. I want you to know that God loves you as he does all children. I am just one member in the Body of Christ. However, I want you to know I believe the Catholic Church does not see you as a lesser person because of the legal marital status of your parents at the time of your birth.
I think you are being objective, and generous. But not all Catholics are like that, The inquisition is still alive within the Catholic Church, ask your superiors if they will allow you to read "The Moral Forces" by Jose Ingenieros A Gem of Spanish language and idealistic atheism.
I think it is horrible that you wanted to be a priest and were not accepted because
you were born out of wedlock. I also think it is ironic that while discussing your being denied the sacrament of Holy Orders, we are discussing your vocation in the sacrament of Matrimony. The window towards priesthood was closed on you for the wrong reason. However, I think God lead you were He wanted you to be, with your wife,
I think God has been very generous with me but giving me a free mind that without any restriction of dogma whatsoever allow me to understand that God is Love and all human beings are wonderful children of God. That the different religions are just human built ivory towers for those who need them. Those that understand that God is Peace, Love and Understanding, could extent their love onto others without being chained to Dogmas, Magisterium or restrictions like the Capital sin, that create negative feelings and grow fear. God desires no fears in children nor I have fears outside all the religions. Whoever wants to join me is welcome, for those who think I am crazy I pray for them so the Love of God may enter their heart and the heart of their loved ones.
I must confess that on your message I perceived the love of God being extended onto me, thanks. That proof my point that there is not one single religion that have the exclusive right for the keys of heaven. Tell me in which row you will seat so I can shake your hand when we meet
in the here after.
Continueto the next page of this discussion...