Salvation Outside the Church (4)
Salvation Outside the Church
Continued from Page Three...

Hope you don't mind if I jump into this converstaion. All of the apostles were Catholic. It was the only Christian religion at that time. It did not carry the name Catholic for some time after the apostles, but it was the same Church.

Celeste


Hi Matt,

I have not read "Spirit of Catholicism" yet. I did download it and will print is as time permits.

My understanding is that from Adam, in the natural process of reproduction, origional sin, thus suffering and death, is passed on to humanity. The soul is deprived of Sanctifying Grace and we all know what that means.

Baptism purifies the soul, yet concupiscence remains. This would seem to indicate that it (concupiscence) is good. Good because it is a means to grow in holiness by becoming the master over tendencies that lead us to offend God. It humbles us, reminds us that without God, we can do nothing. It, in and of itself, is not evil, nor it is sinful. Letting it master us is what is sinful.

Peace,

Mac


So you mean concupiscence is good in the same sense that suffering is good-- not good in and of itself, but useful for us in our fallen state.


Right! Concupience (the tendency toward sin) doesn't keep us from Heaven, submission to it (sin) does.

Make sense?

Mac


Paul,

The one who loves speaks the truth, and does not lie. That was what I was trying to do for you, and for many others out there - tell the truth.

You have a friend who misinterprets Catholic dogma, and there have been others who have done such...but, the fact remains that the Catholic Church teaches that there is salvation for those who are outside the physical contruct of the Catholic Church. That is the position that began this thread, and has permeated this thread throughout.

It seems obvious that you merely read the title of this thread and assumed that it was stating the position that your friend held - but, it did not.

All I am saying now is, understand the position of a person before stating what that person's position is. It is now clear that you, I, and the Catholic Church agree that persons who do not consider or call themselves Catholic can, indeed, be saved.

God bless, Matt


You are wrong one more time. I dislike saying so, because you will interpret as an attack. But it isn't. It is just a kind hand extended to you so you could step down from your arrogance and accept the fact that God is Love, and only Love is salvation.

Why do you need to be so aggresive? You are acting exactly like the inquisition. You are acting exactly like MacCarthy. Be more tolerant, like Francis of Asis

You are full of fear and hatre, that is the reason you must have the last word and stomp over your opponent.

May God illuminate your mind for you to be able to see Plato's light at the end of the cave. The light is love.


Ok Paul, It is my turn to jump in with my .02-Matt is just being honest in his dialogue. As an outside interpreter not in the heat of the "debate" let me shed light on what I have seen. You too, insist on getting the last word in <g>. Those who speak of "Love" being the end and the means are not always the most "loving" people. As a parent I know what "tough love" is and how important that is to a child's development. So it is with our Mother the Church. She must keep us on the path to God through tough love. To whitewash our sins does us no service at all.
Just my interjection-please continue you two <g>
YSIC, Kelly


Paul,
In your last post, you said to Matt:
You are wrong, you are arrogant, you are agressive, you are full of fear, you are full of hatred, you are judgemental (inquisition), and a few other negative things.
Paul, I didn't detect any goodwill toward Matt in your post; but mostly judgement on your part. I think that if you want to judge Matt, you need more information. One way to get it is to look throughout this forum and read the posts that Matt submits. If you do this, you will have a little more information with which to make your judgement, and I dare say that you will come to the conclusion that Matt is a modern day Apostle for Jesus, who said "love those who hate you". He has certainly been this way with you.
Also Paul, I don't know what Plato's light at the end of the tunnel has to offer you, but Jesus the Christ, who is the Light of the World, can offer you eternal life. I pray that you will open that book that you said you haven't opened in years, and allow the Word (Jesus) of God to come into your heart.

Paul, may the peace and love of our God; Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, be with you and with your wife.

Bob


I have avoided this discussion altogether b/c of the reference way back about "A Course in Miracles" or whatever the exact name is. After spending the time reading and refuting those last threads on CEF about these beliefs, it is obvious that their beliefs are new age.....love, unity of consciousness, etc. I wish we could go to archived CEF files b/c I would like to post some of the specifics which are readily refuted, while postulating about loving, etc. makes for circuitious discussions.


You are not a disturbance, Forums are open discussions otherwise we will be at each other by way of Email I am sorry, that for you the Church is paramount for me God=LOVE is paramount I know Catholics who believe that God=LOVE is the only true and I know Catholics who act as the Inquisition was alive and try to bulldoze anyone that departs from Magisterium. Neither human creations is perfect, nor all humans react equally.

My road is wide enough to accommodate each one of all the religions, and groups and sects within each one of them I have a grandson who is Budhist and he is a wonderfully loving person. We have friends who are Muslims, Jews, etc. We all love each other. However, we have a sister, not a Catholic, who thinks that we are in the path to hell. She still is our sister and we love her dearly. While at the university, A priest accuse me of being a communist because I dare to critize his ideas, I was much younger, maybe I attacked his idreas, how can I judge myself.
That cause me a change of life, what is it good or bad? I don't know, my life is too short for me to judge it. I only know that I started my journey away from the Catholic church, perhaps before you were born. I was in my grade 12, two years later I found my path to positive living, without dogma, religion, and even GOD, at least I believed it then, I know better now and many decades later I found that GOD=LOVE There is no need to attack when there is nothing to protect or defend, but once in a while is nice to sting a good discussion GG


Sorry forgot about your laundry G No need to wash sins, we do not have any sins are illusions, we do have freedom to decide if we want positive or negative actions, but sins? what a human illusion they are. If we have sins, we could not be wonderful children of God, do we?


I always said that I am not perfect and I also think that there is no way to please everyone. Matt entered in a personal tone with me and that make me belief that he needed some awakening and perhaps a little bit of sting. I appreciate your knight attitude to step forward in his defence.

There is not need of defence when there is nothing to protect or to keep.

Please read my reply to KaceyJ

I am glad that I feel free to think what I understand is true without anybody regurgitating partially digested food into my mouth. I am glad that I can laugh at inquisitional attacks.
This is a free forum, or it isn't? If it is not free, I would appreciate if somebody put some warning signs, or STOP SIGNS for no believers.GG


<>

Ahhh, there is the perfect "Course in Miracles" belief right there. Yeah, Jesus died for forgiveness of illusions. Each whip across His back, each thorn nailed into His head, the cruelity of dying by drowning in His own fluids while the torment from the pain of the stakes in His hands and His feet were merely so that we "wonderful children of God" could receive salvation from illusions.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?


Paul,
You wrote: God = Love!

How do you know that? Who told you that? Where did you read that? By what authority was it written, or told to you?
Our Knowledge of God comes from Jesus, who is God's word and from the Bible, which is the inspired revellation of God, and from The FIRST APOSTOLIC CHURCH of CHRIST, which was instituted by Jesus to preserve and pass on His word, free from error to all generations.
Paul, where does your knowledge of God come from?

Bob


Paul,

I'm going to bring it down to simple terms, with a simple question:

Where is a quote of any post on this thread [or any other for that matter] (preferably with message number), where I state that there is "no salvation for non-Catholics?" After all, isn't that what you are arguing?

~~ Please answer those questions before responding to the rest of this post.

You wrote:
> Why do you need to be so aggresive?

I am not being agressive. I did not come into your conversation, twisting and mutilating your words to make my own point.
When people twist my words and don't attempt to understand my real position, and instead make up their own idea of my position, and tell everyone that such is my position...I feel I have an obligation to correct that person. After all, are you not trying to "correct" me? (Although there's nothing to correct because we hold the same position.)

> You are full of fear and hatre, that is the reason you must have the last word and stomp over your opponent.

Really? Fear and hatred?
Those who hate cannot truly love, because one who truly loves cannot hate. If I hated, I would not be here, on this forum, sharing my personal struggles, understandings and triumphs for the good of my brothers and sisters.

> May God illuminate your mind for you to be able to see Plato's light at the end of the cave. The light is love.
The light in Plato's cave was artificial, and people thought the shadows were real. Let us look for the true light, which is Christ Jesus. Let us believe Truth, and not leap at shadows.

God bless, Matt


Hello,

It humbles us, reminds us that without God, we can do nothing. It, in and of itself, is not evil, nor it is sinful. Letting it master us is what is sinful.


Somewhere in Corinthians it says: "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties."

For when I am weak, then I am strong.

May Our Lord and Our Lady bless you,
De Maria


Let truth be what it is. Do not intrude upon it, do not attack it, do not interrupt its coming. Let it encompass every situation and bring you peace. Not even faith is asked of you, for truth ask nothing. Let it enter, and it will call forth and secure for you the faith you need for peace.

Page 271 Gifts from a course in miracles.

The teacher who introduce me to Plato in Phylosophy I was a Roman Catholic Priest and he did not say that the light was artificial, but GOD.


De Maria

I admire your response.

Thank you for showing me and others that even Roman Catholics can be able to accept the love of God for what it is.

Your humble me with your universality.

May God guide me to accept his love in such a wonderful manner as it shows in your heartful words.

You are so powerful, you can even touch me. Thanks for your meekness, is wonderful.


Sorry Matt,

I do not think that a boxing match will be considered a positive action. In the other hand I could be a little to heavy for you, I am 6' 258 lbs. G


The wholeness of God, which is His peace, cannot be apreciated except by a whole mind that recognize the wholeness of God's creation.

Page 285 Gifts from a Course in Miracles


Bob, Matt and DeMaria. Thank you for easing my frustration with our new friend by answering him well.

I want especially to sort of second Matt by saying that the topic of this thread (Salvation...) invites discussion on the Catholic teaching of "no salvation outside the Church". You may not have noticed the title is not "There is no...".

Paul; It does not mean what you think it means, plain and simple. It is understandable that you think otherwise, but you can learn something from those who are answering here.

May I suggest you read thru the various answers again to discover that there are many ways to be saved thru the Church. Many can be included.

I believe the people you are corresponding with here wish you to understand what the truth of our position is. So far you have severely misunderstood it, and accused my friends of many wrongs.

If I had anything else to say it would be to simply reprint Bob's answer to you. It is important.

Peace.

polycarp

You really crunch a lot in a short answer.

I wish you explain what is "tough love" for your children.

The Catholics nuns that taut me during grade one and two, did believe that learning with blood is assimilated faster. I have blood running on my face and my knuckles many times. My family was also Catholic and believed in tough love, that for them was physical punishment. I only lived with them during my preschooling years. I remember my mother complaining that she could lift her arms anymore to hit me with a heavy leather belt. The stopped beating me when they put me for the next 12 years in Roman Catholic boarding schools.

My post secondary studies and education was all pay out of my pocket. I started to work when I was 17 and since then I worked at two jobs until my crippled body told me to stop.

No I do not hate them They did out of their ignorance. My mother has enjoyed my monetary assistance for four decades and I bough for her her home. We discussed many years ago that I did not wanted the house back for me but for my children. My Catholic mother used my money to obtain legal advise to transfer the home to my sister because I am a horrible child, and I don't even deserve to be talked.

If anybody want to join the choir My mother will be pleased that she is not the only one. G

Every day my wife and I join hands and pray together for my mother and my sister and her family to receive the love of God in their hearts.


The atonement is not the price of your wholeness, but it is the price of your awareness of your wholeness.

Page 285 Gift from a Course in Miracles.


You seem to be worry about feelings.

They are nice people within the Catholic Church as there are many who are not.

I have many sad memories of my Catholic upbringing but I have a few that I treasure, My Choir Master in High School Father Adolfo Anastasio he showed unbound tolerance and love. He was ordered to change his methods by the school principal, who later became a bishop Anatasio squared up with his superior and he ended up expulsed from the congregation and being sent by the Archbishop to spent 10 years in the Puna of Atacama, a desolated area where it rains only every 30/40 years. They wanted him to learn obedience. He paid back, but composing organ music for the church that won several prizes inside and outside the church.

Father Anselmo a Franciscan in Vancouver he spoke 13 languages, and was my peace and love, when I arrived to a country of which I did not speak the language. was old, but reserved special time slots so he could talk to me like a father, no to talk down like arrogant people that believe the know the only truth. Father Anselmo, gave me a support that was not religious, after having to run for my life, because a Roman Catholic Priest accussed me of being a communist. Two of my goods friends did not run, and they were slaughtered by a Roman Catholic dictatorship. That acusation cost me more than my country and culture, I separated from my children and I lost the love of my first wife. I do not hate my acuser, I know better than that. Every morning I pray to God to give me the strenght and wisdom to forgive all those who intentionally or unintentionally created sore spots in my heart.

Father Joaquin Micheletto, a Scalibrini He talked to me like a brother and helped me to understand why I was bleeding after I loss my culture, my family and my friends We were fishing budies, and a lake was our church. He never asked me to go to church. He was apologetic when he needed to interrump our conversations to go to do his chores in the church. He was deported to Brazil for life because he dared to give his peace of mind to an oppresive bishop.

I could write more than one book of my experiences of being raised as a Roman Catholic child, in a Roman Catholic country, and within The Roman Catholic Schools. I could put many good feelings about those Catholics that really had showed me that they believed that all humans are wonderful children of God. Even in this forum there are just a few of them who show they have the love of God in their hearts.

Nevertheles they are many like you that do not understand what the following poem means:

"Exempt no one from your love, or you will be hiding a dark place in your mind where the Holy Spirit is not welcome. An thus you will exempt yourself from his healing power, for by not offering total love you will not be healed completely."

Page 287 "Gifts froma Course in Miracles"


There is a light tha this world cannot give. Yet you can give it, as it was given you. And as you give it, it shines forth to call you from the world and follow it. For this light will attract you as nothing in this world can do.

Ask for light and learn that you are light.

Page 292 Gifts from A course in Miracles.


I'm almost reluctant to ask this question, but what is this 'Gifts from a Course in Miracles'? I've been reading these quotations that Paul has been posting from this book, but I'm got to say that they sound more like gibberish than profound wisdom to me. Maybe I just don't get it.

For example, "The wholeness of God, which is His peace, cannot be appreciated except by a whole mind that recognize the wholeness of God's creation." What is this supposed to mean? IMHO, it is the height of arrogance for any mere mortal to think that they could fathom "the wholeness of God".

I've been reading 'The Sinner's Guide' by Venerable Louis of Grenada. In contemplating God, he says: "The Divine Being comprises in its unity apparently opposite qualities and perfections which we can never sufficiently admire; for, as St. Augustine observes, 'He is a profoundly hidden God, yet everywhere present; He is essentially strength and beauty; He is immutable and incomprehensible; He is beyond all space, yet fills all the universe; invisible, yet manifest to all creatures; producing all motion, yet is Himself immovable; always in action, yet ever at rest.'" (p. 5)

Like Clint Eastwood said, 'A man's got to know his limitations.' Instead of telling myself that I can be "awareness of my wholeness", I think I'll take Thomas a Kempis' advice and remind myself that I am but "dust and ashes. If I think anything better of myself, behold Thou standest against me and my sins bear witness to the truth, and I cannot contradict it."

God bless,

Rich


Paul, in a boxing match, we'd matchup quite well. However, it is not my desire to have one either.

I'm done. My point is made. There's no need speaking to a soul who believes he has all the answers already. There's no need speaking to a soul who believes you oppose his position when the surface of his position is PRECISELY the same as yours.

Paul, let me sum up this message thread for you...and how you've come across....

My original message: There can be salvation outside the Catholic Church - however, it is more difficult.

Paul's later statement: You are wrong. There is salvation outside the Catholic Church. Stop speading fear and hate by saying there isn't.

My answer: I didn't say that salvation was for Catholics only.

Paul's answer: You are wrong. I HAVE A FRIEND who believes there is no salvation for non-Catholics.

My answer: Our positions agree! Your friend is wrong. The Church (and I, as I stated) profess that non-Catholics may be saved.

~~ Now, since our positions agree, please just HUSH. You're the one who keeps battling over nothing. I am merely making sure that my position is not misconstrued - you take it as though I have to have the last word.

As of 11:59pm 1/15/99 (tonite), I will consider this thread closed...and I will delete all messages after that time - without response. I will leave this thread up for 30 days, upon which time I will delete all "battling" between Paul, myself and others, that does not state or request clarification on, "Salvation outside the Church."

It was my purpose to give the Church's position on the possiblity of salvation outside the Church, and that has been done.

God bless, Matt


I just wanted to clarify something. It is Catholic dogma that "there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church". But as you have very well explained, this doesn't necessarily mean all people outside the visible Catholic Church are damned.


Hello Paulevar,

Wow. What did I say?

May Our Lord and Our Lady bless you,
De Maria


Paul,
I asked you some questions in my last post to you. You posted twice to me after that, but did not answer any of my questions; at least not in an understandable way to me.
It seems to me Paul, after reading your posts, that in your life, you have been thru much that has left many scars on you. Those kinds of scars can take a lifetime to heal, if left to time, but can be healed quickly if given to Jesus as an offering for those who inflicted them on you. Just as Jesus did for all of us. Paul, you could count it as a gift of God to have something (your scars)in common with St Paul, with St Peter and with many thousands of others who have endured suffering and pain and even death in order to be counted among the followers of Jesus. I pray that you will give Him another try. Don't let the imperfect men you have encountered in your life keep you away from the perfect man. Our Holy Church if filled with millions of very good and sincere people, but alas, the spotlight most often is on the not so good ones these days, and sometimes this is the light we see instead of the Light of the world.

Paul, You and your wife will be in my daily prayers for healing of your scars, for healing of your wife, and for the vision of Christ to be your guiding light.

Pax,

Bob


I wish that your Church, no mine, will be filled with lots of good People, but it isn't it is just filled with people and it is a people invention.

Have you ever read Dante Alighieri? Dreams are Dreams,

it is a gem of the renassaisance Italian Literature

How ever read the ancient greek philosphers?

One of them said something like this

"The essential thing is learning that you do not know.

Those who remember always that they know nothing, and who have become willing to learn everything, will learn it"

That is a rephrasing from "Gifts from a Course in Miracles"

I wonder who said "Blessed are the meeks, because they will possess the earth."

You see I am getting too old to remember everything GG


You said that you are a wonderful child of God.


What you say is true, Martin. Rose Mary said the same, and with the same sense. Diplomatic I'm not.

Mac


Yes, that's my position as well....but, for purposes of not being further misquoted, etc. I will refrain from saying more.

God bless, Matt


Dear Paul,

You have had such pain in your life. I was so saddened to hear of your treatment at home by your Mother as a young child, and her continue disapproval of you today. You grew up without the loving home most of us have known in our youth. Yet you still offer love to your mother and family.

I wish I could take away the pain that was caused you by those who should have been giving you pure love. I can pray for you and your family.

Don't let anyone keep you away from the love of God. You are a strong man to continue to pray for your family. Many would have turned away and never offer love to their family.

Yes, I believe God will fill His kingdom with people of all faiths who have come to know Him to the best of their ability. For each of us that is a different road, a different path. I do believe the Catholic Church was started by Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I believe the sacraments I receive will help me to love and serve God more each day. I am sorry that you did not find that peace from those you have traveled with on your journey to God.

I know you are at peace where you travel with God today. Did you ever feel God's love for you at Holy Communion when you were a youth? I truely wish you could feel the love offered during Eucharist. I do not wish to trouble you to be in an area that causes you pain. I would like to invite you to the Table of The Lord if you would like to again travel to God along the road of the Catholic Church.

Please do not feel I am pushing you. It is hard to express feelings over a keyboard. I only would like to extend my hand and open the door to the Catholic Church with a loving heart.

Peace brother,
Rose Mary


Hello Paulevar,

Well I agree with that anyway. Thank you, sincerely for the compliment.


May Our Lord and Our Lady bless you,
De Maria

Hi Rich:

It is very nice to see that you are searching for the light.

Remember that everything are lessons God want us to learn.

You will learn with time it took me many decades to learn just a little.

"The essential thing is learning that you do not know."

Those who remember always that they know nothing, and who become willing to learn everything, will learn it."

Yes that is from "Gifts from a Course of Miracles"

What is it? Just a book of poems written this century that summarizes a great deal of human knowledge.

Do you like poetry? I do.

If you would like to find out about the little book of poems

it is published by G. P. Putnam's Sons.
200 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10016
ISBN 0-87477-803-4

It is very nice and encouraging to see that you recognize that you do know nothing about the poems, before you attack them.

BTW the poems apply to any religion, even to the Roman Catholic Church. That is why I like them.

Many decades ago, when I studied Catholic dogma, I think I read that for the wise priests of the Zanedrim Jesus teachings were gibberish they could not understand what he said, but the fishermen could, Am I wrong?

When you get old, memory sometimes fails.

"dreams disappear when light has come and you can see."

I know that it is a little unfair for me to play cat and mouse with many of you by feeding tid bits here and there. That is why I am giving you the chance to see the whole picture. I only wish that God will give you the wisdom to approach it with and open heart and mind. And that you will not attack it until you have finished it, and get the whole message together. I know I habe been a little unfair with you but life is not fair is it?

In my own narrow mind, I think that your quote from St. Augustine and my quote about God wholeness are very close.

Just put down the shields that make you fearful of anything or anybody that might seem different than what you believe. There are not dangerous beasts that must be destroyed.

To me Christians and not Christians are all wonderful children of God. To me we are all worshiping the same God.

However, that is not the teaching of the Poems book.

I am sad that my labguage is not clear enough for you, but I have been answering every question and point made to me. It is not that I want to have the last say, I just think that is unfair to leave things hanging on the thin air.

May God shed light on your oath to the truth

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