Salvation Outside the Church (5)
Salvation Outside the Church
Continued from Page Four...

Bob, you sure are a kind person deep inside your heart. I wish you will work to let it be more on the surface. I am often rough, I habe been taught the hard way, not with kindness and soft love.

I have no scars left, only some ruffled feathers when someone shows me that kindness and love it is not the ultimate goal.

I have a lot more to tell you about how people could be negative.

I am glad to see that you are trying to reach out to help. I do not defend myself about the truth.

However "Reality is here. It belongs to you and me and God, and is perfectly satysfying to all of us. Only this awarennes heals, because it is the awareness of truth."

I learn that long before I found the "Gifts" book.

There were to teachers who guide me to it: Father Joaquin and Father Anselmo, despite the arrogance of superiors who could not read their message, they were in the heart of God, and accepted all human beings as wonderful children of God, to the point that they always respected my ideas, and miraculously we never had disagreements about basic philosophy.

"Remember that we always choose between truth and ilusion."

I need to preface my remarks with the statement that I am not Catholic, but have been considering it for some time now. My parents were atheists and I had a salvation experience in a charismatic church, but all that over-excitement wore thin pretty quick. Over the last few years, I've watched EWTN regularly and studied the beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic church. I've said the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet every day for over two years now, and I probably would have already been through RCIA except I have some physical problems which make it nearly impossible for me to get out of the house. I trust that God will understand my true feelings and true intentions...

But to the point...

>>Harry Dean's brother has not been baptized. He is a pretty baby, very sweet and good. He has never done anything wrong. Can he go to heaven if he dies just as he is?

I've always been taught that very young children are considered "innocent," and that if they die in this state of innocence, they would still go to heaven because they were not capable of making a proper decision about salvation. To say that the child was condemned because of the failure of the parents to have the child baptized would go against that belief because it was another person's wrongdoing that condemned the child. I've never heard this issue discussed anywhere, so maybe one of you could let me know where the church stands on this...

Paul, the Black Cat
Host -- The First Amendment Playground
Co-Host -- The Peaceful Sanctuary

Thank you are extremely kind, to the point that your love for all human beings bring tears to my eyes.

I do believe that we are in comunion and that we are sat at the same table with God.

Both we are receiving the same sacrament, the love for all human beings.

You do not any help to change, because you have reached the heart of God. Do not feel sorry about me. God gave me a road a little bit more bumpy than to other people had. Perhaps he is expecting more from me than others.

Please do not believe that I am out to get revenge from the Catholic Church, I have very good loving friends within it and now I received your love.

Yes I am strong, because I followed the "Moral forces" of Jose Ingenieros for many years. But what made me really strong was to find priests like father Joaquin and Father Anselmo. They pull a few spider webs from my eyes, and permitted me to see a dim light at the end of the cave, which was God=Love=Wisdom.

Sometimes I think that God gave me strenght to help others to search for the truth, not to see my truth. You have the truth, the love of God. Moreover, you have already help me by reaching out with love.

Some young friends in this Forum, needed a sting to wake up or at least to begin to wake up so they could see that DOGMA is not LOVE. You and them are entitled to believe whatever you wish, but nobody has the right to own the truth. I am sorry that some of them are not ready yet. But others, I know it in my heart, have already a spark in their hearts, let us hope that the spark will grow to be a beatiful light like the one that reside in your heart.

Please pray for me and my sick wife.

I will answer this here but you should take your questions, and answers over to the Baptism thread.



1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

I know it because it is in my heart.

"Do not defend yourself against the truth."

>>but you should take your questions, and answers over to the Baptism thread.

I didn't see that thread until I posted in this one. Sorry.

Paul, the Black Cat

"Over the last few years, I've watched EWTN regularly and studied the beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic church. I've said the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet every day for over two years now, and I probably would have already been through RCIA except I have some physical problems which make it nearly impossible for me to get out of the house."

Black Cat,

Welcome home -- you're almost there!

A thought I had that perhaps one of the more knowledgeable folks on this list could answer is: If you can't make it to RCIA, can RCIA come to you? Is it possible to go through the initiation process at home?

Keep on saying your daily Rosary and Chaplet, and I'll pray that the Blessed Mother continue to care for you and St. Michael to protect you.

God bless,


Thanks, Rich. I'm trusting God to provide the means to get me where he wants me to go, so either a way can be found for me to attend RCIA or, as you suggested, there might be a way for RCIA to come to me.

Paul, the Black Cat

Matt has announced that this thread will be closing this evening. I think most who have wanted to comment on salvation have posted. Since we are trying to keep threads on topic, maybe it is now time we start a new thread to discuss other areas, Paul, if you would like to do so. There is also an area to post prayer request, so that those not reading this thread can join in prayer for you and your wife. Not everyone follows all the threads, so that might be a good place for more prayers to be obtained.

Rose Mary

Thank you for your kindness, I use all the help that I can get because I am only a small dot of dust in the universe. But I am not so important as to go and ask everyone to pay attention to me. Lets be together in comunion with God.

I wish Matt will be with us one day.

I wish Matt will be with us one day.


As far as I know, Matt is regularly receiving the Precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our dear Lord, Jesus Christ. He is doing this in obediance to the Divine Revelation coming from none other than God made flesh, Jesus Christ. Therefore, he is in communion with God, Paul.

Are you not afraid of insulting a brother?

Also, let me ask you this, Why have you stopped beating your grandmother this year?


No I am not afraid of insulting anyone because I attack no one.

Are you?

I would like to find you in the comunion table of the peace of God.


I work in the RCIA ministry at my parish an am delighted that the Spirit is leading you in the direction of the Church. I entered into full communion myself last year. The RCIA documents state that, although the RCIA process is the preferred method of entering the Church, it is not the only. In fact, these documents point out that, in special circumstances (such as yours) other paths may be preferable. One such path might be a form of private catechesis, such as was widely done before the introduction of RCIA.

May God bless you in your journey,


Sorry, I was too small to bet up my grandmother,

She to keep distance by poking me with broom handle GG



I think it is hard to see how words are being spoken across the computer screen. One sentence sent with peace can be read by others as attack. I'm afraid on this thread such misunderstandings may be taking place.

I should not speak for another, expressing what it is I believe they are meaning. However, I will step out of my comfort zone and say to Paul, I believe Matt loves the Lord and tries to serve God by helping others to better understand the Word of God. I believe Paul does not accept the teachings as a whole of the Roman Catholic Church and wishes others to know the Love of God, either by the means he has found God or in the person's own direction toward God.

I think all who have posted here are looking for a better understanding of God and of sharing what they have found with others. Sometimes what I read in another person's post is not what a third person reads in it. I pray that we can all better love the Lord by the gifts of Catholic Source.

Please, I do not wrote this as any attack to anyone. I, and I believe all here, wish for peaceful exchange of directions to serve the Lord.

This is very hard for me to post, as I mentioned it is out of my comfort zone to do so. Yet, I feel I should post it. I hope I am following the right Spirit in writing this.

>>One such path might be a form of private catechesis, such as was widely done before the introduction of RCIA.

Thanks for your kind words and prayers... Would I contact someone at the local church for information on this?

Paul, the Black Cat

Black Cat,

You may want to post this under a new thread heading. This one "Salvation Outside the Church" will be closed tonight. You could start a new thread and title it RCIA. I don't want you to get confussed when this one closes tonight.

Rose Mary

Yes dear Rosemary

The holy Spirit spoke for you.

Nobody could have said it better.

I am glad that you lighten up the right path.

May the love of Guide you for the eternity.

Sorry I garbled my last sentence.

May the Love of God Guide you for the eternity.

This is my final message to Matt.

I never intended to say that you do not Love. I do not believe that I ever wrote that. Your ilussions might make you read what it is not there. If somebody stings you intellectually does not mean that you are a bad boy, neither means that the other person hates you. This was a public forum, until you decided to show that you are the boss and closed it down. That is not a very graceful way to show your power.

You are so sure of ways that you enjoy buldozing other people, and then that make you mad, and angry.

I am at peace, because I has nothing to keep for me I am not afraid because I am beyond fears. I am happy, because I DO KNOW that I know nothing.

Neither one of those thoughts are mine nor they belong to "Gifts from a Course in Miracles"

You will find them in the bible, my translation from Spanish may not have proper English construction you are used to. That is your challenge to find those ideas.

I have already done it, many decades ago.

God's love will guide you to them.


Paul, I am sorry to hear that you were abused in that way as a child. I think things were much different when you were growing up than they were for me. My Catholic HS was wonderful! Lots of Priests, Nuns and Brothers and no one ever laid a hand on us. Still, we knew what was expected of us. I have answered the tough love question on a new thread in General called TOUGH LOVE :-) May God Bless you, and may the angels and saints bring comfort to you and your wife, YSIC Kelly

This thread is officially closed.

This thread was closed due to the fact that I did not feel like banging my head against a brick wall - Paul Evar`. It was no longer posessing the nature it was originally intended to have. I believe most have grasped that fact.

Paul, understand that there are hundreds of other messages on this forum....this is merely one single thread. I acted in the way I did, because you are not, in anyway ready to listen. You have your mind made up as to what I believe or do not believe, and anything I say to the contrary has no effect. I did not want this to go on any longer, so I closed this message thread - not the whole forum, as it does not belong to me. It is not I who am not interested in hearing truth, it is you.

You have not only attacked my ideas (despite your lack of understanding of them), but you have attacked my character and integrity as well. I will not accept that! I have responded to what you have written, by telling you what I believe....and you have consistently maintained that I hold to a set of beliefs that I do not, DESPITE my REPEATED attempts to both gently and not-so-gently correct you in your error. Clearly you are only interested in argumentation and not growth.

You may have never intended to say that I do not love, but you did, in saying that I HATE.
You have not "stung me intellectually". You have misquoted me consistently. I have merely attempted to correct such injustice to my character.

All messages on this thread are still available, so I invite you to go back to the beginning and READ SLOWLY. Then, READ THEM AGAIN.

Again, this is the last response that will be kept on this thread. After 30 days, all these "back and forth" responses will be deleted, and only those pertinent to the topic of "Salvation outside the Church" will remain.

God bless, Matt

Since this is a closed thread, and doesn't particularly relate to "salvation outside the Church" as a doctrine, I am going to move it to a new thread, related to the "nature of the Church".

God bless, Matt


Since all the Apostles were Jewish and practiced Judaism as did Paul, how can they be of the "church?"




you said:


In regards to what?

Baptism is a not a NT invention. Baptism has always been a part of Judaism.



Though this thread has been officially closed, I am allowing this conversation to proceed because it does not (yet?) relate to the previous closed issues....
You said:
Baptism is a not a NT invention. Baptism has always been a part of Judaism.
Baptism, under the New Covenant, takes on a new meaning though, through the grace of Christ. It, in effect, is the entrance into Christ’s Body, the Church, as noted by St. Paul in both his letter to the Romans, and (I believe) the Colossians or the Ephesians (I apologize for not having the time at present to look it up.)

God bless, Matt

I apologize. I did not know this thread had been closed.

Please forgive.


That's not a problem....

If you look back at some of the posts, you'll see why I had to close this thread...however, the present discussion is ok...though, maybe we could take it to a new thread.

God bless, Matt

My last post under this thread.

I quite agree with you that baptism was prefigured in the OT, and that God made quite clear it's necessity.

There was no misunderstanding about baptism of infants in early Christianity. Some held it should occur on the eighth day, the Church said it need not WAIT until the 8th day.



Go back to the Church Apologetics Page.