Forum Post on Idolatry
Forum Post on Idolatry

"You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall now worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of the fathers on the children and on the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep my commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:7-10
(Me is God in this scripture, as in I AM)
Notice how the Lord equates hating him with worshiping other gods. In the case of the Catholics it is the saints that they pray to instead of acknowledging the Christ(God in the flesh)
as the one to be worshiped and adored. He also equates loving him with keeping his commandments.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift os God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23


Ever ask a member of your congregation to pray to God for you? All my Protestant friends have. That's all us Cartholics do with saints, only we have reason to believe God hears saint's prayers a little better than our friends. (Our friends were made a little lower than the angels). You may apologize for accusing us of breaking the first commendment in your next post, and we'll forget about it.


Well, that's all well and good if Catholics actually worshipped the idols...or worshipped anything other than God...which they don't do...so, I'll got with Pete and say "If you say you're sorry, we'll forgive your false witness and forget you ever brought it up."
Okay?
God bless, Matt


Yeah, I'll go with Pete & Matt.
Catholics believe that, while the Church is the family of God, we are the Church 'Militant', 'Suffering' & 'Triumphant' which means we are in communion, not only with Father Son and Holy Spirit, but we share a faith with unseen siblings.
We'll forgive you, though. There is alot of ignorance being spread out there.

polycarp

Guys, guys, this CJ person (I assume) is one of many Protestants who don't seem to understand why we Catholics pray to saints. I'm sure this is not the first time you have encountered accusations like this, is it?
Anyways, CJ, you seem to equate prayer as necessarily being worship. Why is that? Did the Bible say prayer is worship? What exactly is prayer? What exactly is worship? Did the Bible even define what worship is? Why do we worship? How do we worship?
Do you just assume that people worship something just because they kneel in front of that thing (or someone) and talk to it? So the thing (or person) that is being talked to doesn't seem to respond - and yet we're talking to it - are we necessarily worshipping it? Prove it.
Is kneeling in front of someone necessarily worshipping him? Why or why not?
Tell me what you think happens to a person when he dies.
**I'm just going to ask you this much for now. Please try to answer each and every one of them. Thank you.


JamesT,
I've dealt with this before, as I'm sure the other have as well...what we're trying to do (at least I am) is point out that there is a misconception that shouldn't be followed or attributed to what Catholics really believe. At this point, I'm just trying to avoid the same old discussions - Catholics don't worship the saints or images or anything other than God, just as the military men who salute their commanding officers or those who show respect for one having knowledge and wisdom aren't worshipping those persons.
God bless, Matt


It sure puzzles me how all these folks are so positive they know what we believe and insist on telling us in the face of our unshakeable assertions that we believe something totally different. Duh!!
Do we go around telling Evangelical Fundamentalists that they should stop worshipping their Bibles? (You don't worship your Bible as an idol you say? My point exactly.)


Good point, Catherine...thanks!
For you and others, I just made a point of that over on the Bible Discussions forum...
Picture a Protestant man, sitting or kneeling in a pew in a church, eyes closed in prayer, holding a Bible to his forehead... He must be worshipping the Bible right? Well, if we didn't understand better, we could think that; however, I think of us Catholics as more responsible than that.
God bless, Matt


Well Ladies and Gentlemen,
If you don't worshop idols than I am very glad,
but why are there so many of them in your places of worship?
You see I am trying to help you, in the end it is between each indiviual and the Lord. Okay.
In eternity if God questions you about idolatry then you may remember this moment in time.
But, do know that you can go to God on your own.
Read John 15:1-17
vs.7 says "If you abide in Me, and My words aide in you, ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you"
Also: Ps. 145:18,,,,Matt 6:6,,,,Matt 7:7,8,,,John 14:13-14
James 5:17-18
God Bless


Dear CJ,
I do not worship any statue. My only worship is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I worship who I believe is the One True God.
In the church building that I attend for community worship of God, there are statues present. I do not worship these. They are there to call to mind holy people that I may want to strive to be like. I do not know any Catholic or Protestant person who worships statues. In Europe, statues are found in Protestant churches as well. In many cities in Europe, statues of saints are in the market place. I never knew anyone who worshiped those either. In our capital city, Washington, D.C., there are statues of famous Americans. Yet, I know of no one who either worships that American or the statue.
In my home, I have pictures of family members, both living and deceased. They remind me of loved ones. I do not worship these people nor their picture. In my place of worship, statues and pictures of God's loved ones have been placed. They remind me of those who have loved and serve God. I do not worship them. If I see statues of those I call saints and strive to do better, is that a sin? The statue is not my god.
Yes, there are statues and pictures of holy men and women in my place of worship. They are a reminder of living a holy life. I understand your concern if you thought I was worshiping this statue. As a Christian, you have been called
to instruct others in the way of the Lord. If I was worshiping these statues, yes, that would be a sin. I thank you for being concerned enough to question me in this area.
In response to prayer through those close to God, I believe asking those who have gone before us to present our petetions to the Father is an acceptable request. We pray for one another while living on earth. I believe God hears my pray when I pray for others. I believe He hears the prayers of saints when they pray for others. I also pray directly to God. He hears my prayers straight from me. I don't see how I could be wrong in asking for others to pray for me, also.
I hope you understand a little more of why a house of worship has reminders of saints and why I request a holy man or women to pray for me.
Peace of Christ be with you,
Rose Mary


Excellent, Rose Mary. Nothing to add.

polycarp

Matt, your point about kneeling before a bible and eyes closed in prayer reminded me of something I had thought of a long time ago but I'm not sure if I ever brought it up.
Suppose a person knelt down with his eyes opened in prayer and he happened to be facing a wall. To the observer, he might look like he's praying to the wall because he seems to be staring at the wall. In most cases, the observer would not think that the guy who's kneeling down is worshipping the wall. However, if it wasn't the wall and it was a statue that was being faced, then the same observer might conclude otherwise. Now why would that be; what's the difference?
If the person praying had his eyes closed, would it then matter what he was facing, since he's not "looking" at anything? Could one then conclude that the person was worshipping the thing being faced (but not stared at)?
(there's something else too, but i can't remember)
Also, why do statues exist? Is it not because we want the statue to represent a concept; representing a concept such as a "make-believe" god, or a physical reminder of someone special, or just simply a decoration like any other type of image?
Which one of these apply to the statues found in Catholic churches? I'll let you guys decide on the second and third point, but let's just look at the first one. Is it a "make-believe" god? Why or why not?
Further, what is a god? Do we really consider that statue a god? And is it okay to have physical representations of our God? Why or why not? Would it be okay to have pictures (ie: two-dimensional form), but not statues (ie: three-dimensional form) of God? Why or why not?
CJ, regarding your statement about us being able to go to God on our own... I agree; we could go to God on our own (that is, of course, by the Blood of Christ first). Are you just reminding us that fact or are you actually implying that we are looking for alternative routes to try to get to God; routes that may be wrong to take? If the former, then fine - thanks. But if the latter, why?
One thing you have to remember in connection to the above is that we, as the children of God, are one big (happy) family. Shall this family only be restricted to those we can see (ie: still physically alive on earth)? That is why I asked the question of what happens to a person when he dies.
I find it interesting to note that it just might be possible that humans have a natural tendency to believe that everybody has some kind of spirit or soul and that it may be human tendency to think that a person who dies is not totally dead in the sense that his spirit cannot in any way perceive anything. I brought this up quite some time before you (CJ) showed up. An example was that of Lady Diana's funeral (or in fact anybody's funeral). We do a service for the dead person? We make speeches and stuff and we buy flowers and we even gather in a place deemed as being somewhat or somehow holy. Why do all that? If the person('s spirit) is totally dead, what's the point of doing all the stuff that we do when a person's dead?
Now *if* a Christian is in heaven and is alive and well, would s/he not be able to do anything? Like angels, would they not be able to see what's going on down there? Maybe not doing anything as directly as angels are allowed, but still just as aware of what's going on on earth? If they could see us, would they not be able to hear us? If they could hear us, would asking them to pray for us (just like we ask each other here on earth to pray for us) be wrong? It's just asking; like we do with each other.
True, we also call it prayer. But what is prayer? What, if any, is the difference between prayer to Saints and prayer to God? Is prayer necessarily worship? Why or why not?
It is interesting to note that the Catholic Church has what I find to be an extremely rich way of worshipping; a really high level of worshipping. Quite frankly, I find it to be a lot more richer than what is found in at least the majority of Protestantism.
(anyways, i'll stop here; i got class...)


I forgot to add... What I was saying about Catholic worship and about different levels of worship is that there could be much more than just simple prayer and song when it comes to worship. Think about that one.
HINT: you'll need to have an open mind about this (and even creativity if necessary!


Has anyone here received direct email from CJ deFrance? I have responded to him about the necessity of the Imaculate Concepetion, but hoped he would ask his questions here for all to see


Yes, Pete, I have too. I mentioned that it was more apropriate to post the questions here.

polycarp

He's afraid of Matt. Mistake for him to think we'd be any easier. He has still ignored that God (Holy Spirit) could not contact sinful flesh, requiring Mary to be an exception (the new Eve).


Well, I'm happy to see that we've convinced you that we don't worship idols.
What Rose Mary said is very true...and I'd like to mention a few other things....
Keep in mind that Solomon was commanded by God to put statues in the temple that was to house the ark of the covenant - which itself had many images of things in heaven (cheribim, etc.). Keep in mind that the ark of the covenant was to be the central focus of the Jewish worship. Now, people didn't worship the ark, but God. God never said not to *have* images...He said don't worship images/idols.
We have an image of God in Jesus Christ...therefore we take His image to focus ourselves on God. Further, we have statues of canonized saints - those who have been deemed by the Church to have led exemplary lives, worthy of our recognition - also to serve as models for us...to show us that it is possible to live a holy life, faithful to God. These are our brothers and sisters as well...even though they've gone on to eternal life...and we surround ourselves with these, so as to remember them - just as you might have a picture of your deceased grandfather or grandmother, etc.
God bless, Matt


Just a clarification... "We have an image of God in Jesus Christ..." What I'm sure you mean is that in Jesus Christ we do have God Himself (not a mere image of Him), but God in a visible form. (Didn't want to give the impression that we didn't believe in the Divinity of Christ.)


Of course, there's always my first grade interpretation-This commandment was addressed initially to a population that was surrounded by idolatry and physically surrounded by Images of "gods" which are meant to be objects of worship. Maybe since we don't have a great number of these images in America, the critics of our statues have misplaced the objects of blame of this commandment. Did that make sense, at all?
YSIC, Kel


CJ...Welcome and thank you for stopping by our board and questioning us on the Holy Catholic faith. It is a wonderful expierence to share with our brothers and sisters the complete truth of God's one true church on Earth. Unlike the unkind reception we sometimes recieve when we visit Protestant boards, you will find understanding, love and a great deal of prayer to the Lord Most High, here.
Please continue to post your questions and please tear down any defensive wall you may have when talking to us as perhaps the Spirit is trying to talk to you through us.
We are God's children just as you are God's children. We all are heirs to the Kingdom and we all therefore think we understand God's teaching. But sometimes our eyes are vieled for some unknown reason. All I would request is that you hear what we say and be open mind.
I can only agree with what my friends have told you in the subsequent posts. There is much misunderstanding by our Protestant brothers and sisters as to what Catholics really believe. Not really sure of how or why the mistruths were made in the first place but we as Christians have a responsibility to correct them, don't you agree?
God's peace and grace...TomH


The 'Idol Worship' accusation always reminds me of a great story I heard from Pat Madrid.
He was in the Chicago area with a non-Catholic. They went to a Catholic Church that had a statue on its grounds of the Blessed Mother with three small statues of the Fatima children kneeling and praying in front of her.
Pat turned to his companion and said: "Not only do we pray to statues, we even have statues which pray to statues!"
God bless, Rich


Rich,
That really made me laugh. I think that story will pop into my mind everytime I hear how we Catholics worship our statues. I guess that or St. Bernadette at Mary's grotto would be great for all of us to have at home. Then when we are too lazy to worship our statues, our statues can worship them for us.
Thanks for the laugh!
Rose Mary


Hi,
There were two days that I wasn't able to spend time in here. So I did not know what was going on in here.
Regarding Idolatry:
I am new at investigating catholicism, so I only know what I have read and heard from those around me.
But, Ido now what my bible tells me regarding Mary-the mother of Jesus, and I still say she was a blessed(favored) young lady but, was never meant to be put on a Saint status. Yes, through her all generations have been blessed, because of Jesus. She was only an earthen vessel. God can use anyone who is obedient and willing to follow his ways.
Also Mr. Palumbo:
Wrote me at my email address, so i simply hit reply, that was during the time I could not spend time online, so email was easier for me the same with Tim Brophy.(sorry guys)
By the way I am a female, the Davfrance is a combo of my husband and my names, I am france(CJ is a character in one of my stories)
Anyway. Who says Mary is a saint in the bible? Show me in the bible, okay.
God Bless.
I will get back to you on the Ark.....by monday.


But, Ido now what my bible tells me regarding Mary-the mother of Jesus, and I still say she was a blessed(favored) young lady but, was never meant to be put on a Saint status. Yes, through her all generations have been blessed, because of Jesus. She was only an earthen vessel. God can use anyone who is obedient and willing to follow his ways.
Usually the argument I see is that we are all saints.
She was no ordinary woman to whom God thought fit to send an Archangel with the salutation, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." Nor was she an ordinary woman to whom Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Ghost, cried out, "Blessed art thou amongst women; and whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me." Had any ordinary woman come to visit Elizabeth, no such exclamation would have fallen from her lips.
Secondly, you yourself say that Mary was selected by God for a great purpose. Now has God ever not fittingly prepared those whom He has designed to call to great duties? We see that in the case of the prophets, and above all, in the case of that greatest of all the prophets, St. John the Baptist. Yet not one of these had so close a relationship to Jesus as Mary.
For a more complete handling on Mary, here is an excellent tract: Hail, Full of Grace
Also Mr. Palumbo:
Wrote me at my email address, so i simply hit reply, that was during the time I could not spend time online, so email was easier for me the same with Tim Brophy.(sorry guys) By the way I am a female, the Davfrance is a combo of my husband and my names, I am france(CJ is a character in one of my stories) Anyway. Who says Mary is a saint in the bible? Show me in the bible, okay.

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1)
Was Mary not faithful?
If you are looking for a specific verse that calls Mary a saint specifically, there isn't one.


CJ,
Regarding Mary...I offer the following items...and I will attempt to stay within the context of the Bible (for the time being; unless we get into the sometimes inevitable position of proving a specific interpretation of a verse, at which time it would be necessary to show the historical, or Traditional, interpretations and Christian beliefs).
Now, it is important to understand what the Catholic idea of a "saint" is. Though we who are part of God's family are considered "saints" by St. Paul's terminology...it is also important to understand what we mean when we call someone a "Saint".
This is someone who has lived their life in a way that can be a model to all Christians. One who's devoted oneself to learning the Will of God, being completely obedient to it - usually along with some extraordinary expression of faith.
From merely the Bible alone, we know that Mary was completely obedient to the Will of God, and she was "blessed among women." Mary's statement to God, upon His asking (he didn't force it upon her) her to be the Mother of our Savior was, "let it be done to me according to your will." From other sources we know that at a very early point in her life, she was consecrated to God, and spent her life around the temple. (I believe this might be evidenced in the Didache (pronounced "di-da-key"), which is the earliest Christian writing we have in our posession.)
Her life, though we don't know much about it from the Bible alone, was a life that we can see was totally obedient to God...and therefore a worthy model to us all. For we can strive to walk in the shoes of Jesus, but because He is God, we will never fully be able to do so. But, take Mary (or even another saint), and we can, even through a glimpse of her, a mere mortal woman, strive to respond to God in the faithful way she responded.
It's important to keep in mind that God is not a user. We must respond positively to Him...He basically does to/for us, what we allow Him to do for us.
Now, something that's even more important to keep in mind, and I think is what you're getting at...is that there need be no fear in thinking that we are not giving all honor due God to Him. That is what I have found is most difficult, for those who seem afraid of Mary and the saints, to grasp. God is it! God is #1! We don't place anything or anyone on the same level as or in front of him.
I believe this fear begins to subside when we start to realize that Jesus honored His mother...and his (earthly) father too. So, I believe it's feasible that if we wish to follow Jesus as much as possible, that we honor his mother in the way that he did. After all, look at the "Wedding at Cana" as an example...Mary came to Jesus about the wine running out...and most think that he didn't listen to her, in fact he rebuked her. But, if you look closer, you'll see that even after that statement by Jesus, she says "Do whatever he tells you." And, he does it. He performs a miracle that results in the best wine they've ever tasted. So, it's feasible to believe this not to be a rebuke, but something more to Mary's role in the revelation of the Son to the world.
Well, that's all for now...I'd be more than happy to answer any direct questions you have about Mary...or anything else about Catholicism. Most likely, if you have Protestant friends that you speak with about this, they are going to most likely give you a slanted view of Catholicism, and their own idea of Biblical interpretation. That's not what you'll find here...we all do our best to provide solid Catholic answers that are faithful to the teachings of the Church over the past 2,000 years.
God bless, Matt


CJ....In Rev:12:1-18...John speaks of a vision where a woman appeared in the sky. Her dress was clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head was a crown of 12 stars. She gives birth to a son who Satan is trying to kill.
My interpretation is that the woman is Mary. The 12 stars are the 12 Apostles. She is clothed with the sun which suggests that she is clothed with God's grace. If you are clothed with God's grace then I would think it very logical that the person mentioned would be in heaven with God.
Now, some would suggest that the woman in Rev. is not Mary but actually the city of Jerusalem and the 12 stars being the 12 tribes of Isreal. However, if we read a little further in that same chapter we see that the woman was sent to Eygpt for 3 and 1/2 years. In Matt. we see that the Angel of the Lord sent Mary & Joseph to Egypt for a specified time.
Now, I could be wrong with my interpretation here, and I welcome if someone on the Forum would confirm or correct my interpretation. Goodness knows that I wouldn't want to lead anyone astray!!!
God's peace.....TomH


A further thought about images... (back after 5 days)
I saw this poster of the Crucifix at a Christian Bookstore. But the Crucifix was viewed from the back of it. In other words, you couldn't see the face of Christ; you only see enough to know that someone is suppose to be nailed on that cross. What strikes me is that if we were to see the face of Christ (ie: the front) as He is hung on the cross, it would be viewed by at least some Protestants as being wrong because Christ has already risen and should no longer be pictured as being crucified on the cross. However, they say an image of the crucifix is okay if we see the back of it. Isn't that kind of strange? I don't get it...
Now these pictures are of a two-dimensional form. With the crucifix viewed from the back and shown as a two-dimensional image, it was accepted. However, if the same crucifix viewed from the back was shown as a three-dimensional image (ie: the actual statue and not just a picture of the statue), then it was rejected as erroneous. Why; why should there be a difference?


TomH, knowing very little about Biblical interpretation and theology, I will just make the comment that your understanding of those verses is possible although I won't say it is the only interpretation.
Also, the Mary worship thing reminds me of something else.
If we worship Mary, then we would of course obey her and I don't think we would ignore Jn 2:5 where Mary said "Do whatever he tells you to do". And Christ told us not to worship anybody else besides God. So if Catholics were really worshipping Mary, they'd be contradicting themselves, won't they?


James...That's an excellent point!!
I had to read your message a couple of times to get what you were really saying. If we REALLY worshipped Mary as others say we do, then we would obey her command to worship her son. Mary would point us back to Jesus as the one to pray to and listen to. I'll have to borrow that one for my work discussion.
TomH


Hi CJ:

I am not a Catholic but a Protestant, a Lutheran from a fundamentalist background on my father's side and Catholic background on my mother's (and wife's) side. May I say lovingly and gently that you do not know what you are talking about and that it is particularly arrogant on your part to make a statement like you did without checking it out. My friends on this thread have treated you more kindly than I might have in the same circumstances. I find it offensive that you would impugn their method of worship without basis.

I have read the beliefs of the Catholic Church as expressed in their statement of faith called the "Catechism of the Catholic Church". Many, if not most Catholics have not read it, but I did because I wanted to know. And guess what my brother, it states the exact opposite of what you accused Catholics of. And the brother who pointed out that Protestant fundamentalists appear to 'worship' the Bible is right on the mark in my experience. The CCC presents doctrine directly from the Bible. (In fairness, I think Catholics and Protestants can differ on certain doctrines -- but our common bedrock beliefs are one and the same, are a unified whole.) Our Catholic bretheran DO NOT give to saints that which is due G-d alone. And it is offensive and repulsive to accuse them of idolatry.

Pax,

Frank


Hi Tom:

I have looked for some "protestant" boards as enlightening as this one but without success. Do you have any in mind for this Lutheran --- or do I have to keep putting up with Matt & Polycarp *lol*

Pax vobiscum,

Frank


Speaking about Davfrance, her posts are now 10 days due (she said she would "return to the Ark" on Monday - that's last, last Monday).
**I hope she gets her computer fixed soon!

Also, Matt [assuming you came by now that you have abandoned us! ;-)], how's your debate going with "Cathy"?

And Frank, thanks for defending for us. It is much appreciated.
If I may be so daring/nosy to ask: Why don't you "return home"?


Frank..When I have time to surf I usually follow Martin around in the sites that he goes to. He seems to find some real good discussion groups that are Protestant based. I would have to yield to Martin on where the best Protestant sites are located.

Now, as for our *rabble rouser* brother MATT is concerned, he seems to find sites where the people get a little *nasty* and sometimes insulting, which just turns me off completely. Because I enjoy listening to a good debate with the facts alone and none of the bad personalities that unfortunately sometimes goes with it. It allows me the chance to weigh the arguements myself based on true fact. So when Matt gets back I'm sure he will offer some of his *favorites*, too.

I have booked marked one of Martins sites that shows up as: 208.154.255.121/forum.htm

One of Matts sites was our friends on the other delphi boards namely Christian Conservative Forum.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.......TomH


Hi Frank,

On the way to Church, I pass my a Lutheran Church. There is a message board out front for all to read.

The lastest - "The cheese in a mousetrap is free".

I alway enjoy the little sayings.

Mac (if you're not careful, you may have to put up with me!)


Hi Mac:

It has ALWAYS been, hasn't it? Ask mother Eve. *smile*

Pax,

Frank


One never knows.

Pax,

Frank


The one you have bookmarked changed a while back. That is the John Michael Talbot forum .... JMT Forum


Not a lot going on on that forum.


Thanks Martin...I changed the bookmark. Any other sites you could recommend??

God's peace....TomH


I hate to openly recommend Protestant sites .... so many different views are put forth.... they can easily lead anyone to confusion!

I spent nearly a year at one called CARM (Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry). For quite a while we had some good intelligent discussion, but eventually some immature anti-Catholic types moved in and stayed. The problem wasn't with dealing with their arguments .... it's that they totally ignored your response. They'd post a tract with a bunch of scripture they thought proved Catholicism wrong and evil. I'd spend an hour or so typing a response showing their misuse of scripture and incorrect ideas about Catholicism. They (numerous people at once) would simply post another tract or just ignore what I had said and continued with their erroneous statements. I simply don't have the time to respond to five lengthy tracts at once. They simply weren't open to the truth of Catholicism ..... and I have to keep in mind Titus 3:9-10

It got old, so I eventually left that site.

Here's one that has some intelligent conversation and has a number of knowledgable Catholics:

Catholic Interfaith Discussion

I haven't spent much time at that one lately, but the discussion is fairly intelligent.


Thanks Martin!!

I'm going to trot over there this evening and check it out. I haven't jumped in much to Apologetic discussions, but when I read the back and forth between you and someone else, I can't help but learn the way to be a better defender. I use the discussions to help me now when I talk to my Protestant friends at work (but of course, they're my friends so it is an easy audience!!) Someday soon, I want to be able to get up enough nerve to take on a not-so-friendly discussion!!

Thanks again........

God's peace

TomH


One thing that is helpful to remember .... there isn't a verse from the bible that the Catholic Church somehow just overlooked.

I always find it curious when some Protestants throw out some verses, say like Ephesians 2:8-9, and they think that somehow proves the Catholic Church is wrong. It's like they think the Catholic guy will say .... "Man! Who slipped that verse in there! Maybe I should tell the Pope about this one. I may need to become a Baptist!"

The Catholic Church produced, protected, and determined which books where to be included in the bible and has been dealing with these questions and attacks for 2000 years. They do have answers for any attack that can be leveled.


Yes, it seems that a lot of Protestants (more specifically evangelicals or even fundamentalists) who don't seem to know that some of the best theologians around and ever were Catholics. Even those prominent non-Catholic christian theologians tend to lean more towards the Catholic side than evangelicals would like to show otherwise.


There is also an issue with translations of Holy Scripture. I find it curious that our separated brothers and sisters that hold to sola scriptura use such a poor translation (KJV). I'm fairly sure that they come to conclusions (even in good faith) because of this.

Here's a typical example.

King James

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Douay Rheims

9 And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the
dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things:
10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the
principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,
11 According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord:

You can see that in the KJV it is "BY THE CHURCH" as opposed to "THROUGH THE CHURCH" in the Rheims. Big difference.

If pressed, our brothers and sisters, will object at first, and then check the Greek and admit, and then change the context. They resist, and our prayers should be for them.

Another example of this can be found in The Apocalypse of St. John.

22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book.

Asked if salavation can be lost, the answer from our brothers and sisters that hold to sola fides is a resounding "no". Asked what happens in this verse - Bad translation - your part isn't taken out of the book of life, it should read out of the tree of life. I agree, and ask, How, do you suppose God will take your part out of the Holy City (Heaven), if you never had a part? Again they resist, and again we should pray for our separated friends.


When I questioned about the validity of Bible translations, I was told that I doubt too much. I thought otherwise. The Holy Spirit can guide people, but that doesn't mean no mistakes regarding Scriptures can be made. It is known by Protestants and Catholics that the Jehovah's Witness' translation "New World Translation" is an erroneous one. To Protestants, Catholicism has gone wrong even though claiming to be infallible. To Catholics, Protestantism is wrong. So what's wrong with my questioning?
If you read church history, you will find that erroneous translations of the Bible have been made and the Catholic Church had to deal with it.
Further, the NIV (which I "questioned") is translated by over hundred scholars from various denominations which all of the listed ones are Protestant (or so according to the preface). This may avoid bias within the Protestant circle, but may still have bias within the Christian circle which is a larger circle enclosing the Protestant circle.


Martin,

I always find it curious when some Protestants throw out some verses, say like Ephesians 2:8-9, and they think that somehow proves the Catholic Church is wrong. It's like they think the Catholic guy will say .... "Man! Who slipped that verse in there! Maybe I should tell the Pope about this one. I may need to become a Baptist!

That's something I always have in my mind when we get into dicussions where there are a huge number of verses posted (specifically without any context or explanation as to their meaning). The funny thing is, that when we reconcile them perfectly to the rest of Catholic teaching, we're accused of twisting Scripture.

Oh well, the "good fight" continues....

God bless, Matt


There is a certain dishonesty in the fact that "Bible Christians" claim to have no oral traditions. Phooey. It's only in the light (darkness?) of their own oral traditions that the verses they quote acquire the meanings they claim for them. Without oral traditions, how would they know a priori, as it were, that the Catholic Church couldn't be right?


That's why their sola scriptura concept doesn't make sense if you think about it. They dismiss any authority for interpreting Scripture and at the same time, they turn to their theologians and scholars for exegesis.


While Jill doesn't like it when I do this....I refer to Protestant tradition as opposed to Catholic tradition when I speak of things relating to Catholicism or Protestantism. I did this even when speaking to Jill's pastor before our wedding.

I think that they have to come to the realization that they follow traditions....besides, if they didn't, they'd be doing something new everyday. Just because it's not 2,000 years old doesn't mean it's not a tradition.

God bless, Matt


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