Another Forum Post on Mary (1)

Mary

Hmm, I just realize we don't have an apologetics post on Mary.

The Eucharist reminded me of the Passover where people had to use the blood of the *first-born* lamb. Christ is the Lamb of God. He is *the* LAMB whose sacrifice means that there is no more need for anymore sacrifice.

Christ was also called the "first-born". Perhaps that is what is meant and not that Mary had to have a "second" child or something.


James,

Don't let the "first-born", with regard to Jesus, of Mary throw you. It doesn't have to imply a "second-born" (if that's how I'm to understand your message.)

If you look at the OT, and the offering sacrifice for the "first-born", one will see that it is to be done within a specific time period, which was not long enough to determine if there was to be a "second-born"....yet, the "first to open the womb" was known as the "first-born", even with out there necessarily being a "second-" or "third-" or "fourth-" or "tenth-" born.

Please excuse me if this was not your point. But, it's probably good info either way.

God bless, Matt


I wasn't confused by the "first-born" meaning there would be a "second born" or something. I've read your answer in other apologetics pages on Mary before. But what I was suggesting is that perhaps "firstborn" was written in the gospel just to emphasize (or foresee) that Christ is the firstborn Lamb whose Blood and sacrifice is considered pure by God and so is accepted and that all who accept that Blood as being "the Blood of the new and everlasting covenant..." will not be killed by the Angel of Death.

So when opponents of Mary's Perpetual Virginity use the "firstborn" argument, maybe the above could be used. That just popped into my mind last night when I was thinking about the Passover and your "avalanche" analogy by the difference between knowing and doing.

Thanks Matt.


Christ told us that if we pray in His Name (and if the thing asked for is compatible with the Will of the Father), then our request would be granted. But did that indicate that we could pray in Mary's name? Would it be wrong if we did so?

I remember reading from a booklet on Fatima, it suggested that Mary (being the God's Mother) could, up to a certain extent, restrain the Hand of God that wanted to strike the world for its sins. But does that mean that if we pray in Mary's name that God may also grant our request?

Since we are to pray for one another, would that not just simply mean that, provided we are righteous, God will "give face" to us and help the person we're praying for on our behalf? So in that sense, could one say that we could only pray in Jesus' Name? That is, could we also pray in the name of anybody else who we are certain to be righteous?


Why would you want to pray in anyone else's name but the Lord? I mean Jesus is the son of God, He is God. There is power in His name. He is the Word of God. Why pray in anyone else's name but His?

Love in Christ,
Duy mara


We should only pray in Jesus' name. But this doesn't prevent us from asking others, such as Mary, to also pray for us in His name.


Hey Martin,
Tell that to James. He was asking. *grin*
I can see asking the Saints to pray for me, because I ask everyone to pray for me.
The more prayer I get, the better.
0:) <--- note my halo.
I was wondering why would you want to pray in someone's name who would not be at the top. An odd comparison would be; Why eat out of a garbage can if a banquet is set before you. Why choose anyone but Christ. I've heard "I'm not worthy." True, however, we become worthy by the blood of Jesus. So why not go to Him.. He is the lamb of God. He sacrificed Himself so we might live. He wants us to believe in Him, to come unto Him. To use His name. He is the Word of God, Lamb of God.

Love in Christ,
Duy mara -->


I was wondering because evangelicals have charged that we pray through Mary or we pray in Mary's name and I was like, "Huh?! Where on earth did you get that from?" And then I don't get any real answer after. And so I was wondering if there would be people praying in Mary's name.

Some of you might remember that really disgusting site called "____________________________". They might pray in Mary's name. Or some people who are devoted to Mary may do something in Mary's name or in the Immaculate Heart or something of the like


That is stuff of anti-Catholics, or misinformed Christians. If you look closely at the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, it describes the prayers said at Mass.... This caused me to take more notice that prayers said to the Father as said "through the Son", etc.

Notice that we never pray through Mary, for Christ Jesus is truly our sole mediator. however, this should not be confused with intercessory prayer, which is asking others to add their prayers to yours for a particular intention.

We would never "ask this through Mary, our Mother" for instance. "We ask this through Christ, Our Lord."

Usually when pressed on "where'd you get that from", if it is the mere opinion of that person, or something they overheard, it will not be responded to. Some just seek to create doubt, and that is their way of converting people. One who is led astray by hearsay, and not truth is walking quite a rocky road.

God bless, Matt


Not much use praying to Mary she is dead and in the grave until Jesus comes and raises the just dead and the just living. I thess . God Bless you all!

Creation of Man
Soul is what man is :Strongs' No. <05315> nephesh {neh'-fesh} 1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion 1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul,

Spirit=breath is what was put into man . Strongs' No. <07307> ruwach {roo'-akh } wind, breath, mind, spirit

body {neh'-fesh}+ breath {roo'-akh } =living soul, when we die , the process reverses

The Hebrew word for spirit (and ghost, Job 3:11), ruach, and the Greek word, pneuma, mean breath, wind, or vital element. It is the spark of life which makes you able to live. It is "the breath of the Almighty" (Job 33:4). When the Bible uses those words in reference to man, not once does it say that ruach or pneuma is something in man that retains consciousness after the person dies.

Angels are called spirits (Psalm 104:4) because to human eyes they are as invisible as breath. But man does not possess the nature of angels (Psalm 8:5), nor does the Bible indicate that he assumes it at death.

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help. 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Gen 2:man was made from the dust of the ground and God breathed into him the breath of life and man BECAME a LIVING SOUL= notice God did not put a soul into man, but that body+breath=living soul

Do the dead know anything? Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10, NIV. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun. . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom."

Daniel says they are sleeping? Daniel 12:2, NIV. "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake."

What is death like? It is like falling asleep. I Thessalonians 4:13, NIV. "Brothers,we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope."

and in John 11:11-14, NIV. "After he had said this, he went on to tell them, Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.' His disciples replied, Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.' Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, Lazarus is dead'.

Ecclesiastes 3:19that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.


Kate,

Based on your statements...we - our souls and all - are left buried in the ground until Jesus' return? This would be to say that some have been in the ground for around 6,000 years or so.

This is neither a professed belief of the Jews or of true Christians, for we believe that there is the resurrection of the soul, immediately after physical death...but, upon Christ's "Second Coming" there will be the resurrection of the body.

I invite you to look at the numerous links on The Communion of Saints....and also these links on The Soul, and the Resurrection of the Body.

You may also want to go to our homepage, and follow the link to the Catechism search, which explains this - with Biblical references.

Sorry I don't have more time to spend on this at present, but perhaps we can start a new thread related to this, if you'd like to continue.

God bless, Matt


If the "brothers of the Lord" rejected Jesus at the time of His Death on the Cross, would Jesus have to look for somebody else (such as John who was present) to take care of Mary?


James, we find no mention of "brother of Jesus" rejecting Him, on the one hand. And, we find no mention - and thus should think that, had there actually been "brothers of Jesus" (which we know there were not by the authority and Tradition of the Church), are we to think that they would reject their mother?

Seems like alot of things had to happen that probably wouldn't have happened, especially by those who we should think knew and feared God, for this assertion to really ring true.

If one presents this idea to you....ask them to show you *that* from Scripture because it's not their....and, if they are going to subscribe to sola Scriptura, then they must hold to it stringently...and not "add to what is written" (as they most commonly charge.)

God bless, Matt


Wasn't it that everybody (except John and some women) took off because they were afraid of Jesus dying on the cross and then they weren't there to support Christ? That's approximately what I meant


Then would there have been a need to entrust the care of Mary to John....certainly Jesus would have known that his brothers and sister would have cared for her.

Keep in mind that not only was she entrusted to his care, but she went off to Ephesus (I believe) with him...she travelled with him, etc. (If I remember correctly - please someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

Further, we believe that entrusting Mary to the care of John, and vice versa, the way Jesus did....He was entrusting all of us to Mary, and Mary to all of us, as a Mother.

God bless, Matt


How can you assume that because Jesus entrusted Mary to John that he is entrusting her to us and us to her as a mother? Mary was old, and she needed someone to take care of her. You are reading way to much into it. Pardon my directness.


How old was Mary when her son Jesus died on the cross?


I don't know how old Mary was when Jesus died on the cross.


Adam,

You remarked that the reason Jesus said to Mary from the cross, "Woman, there is your son." and to the disciple, "There is your mother." in John 19 is that

"Mary was old, and she needed someone to take care of her."

I was wondering how old you assumed she was when saying she was so old that she could not care for herself.

"You are reading way to much into it."

I was wondering where you read into it that Mary was an old woman at the time of her son's death.

The explaination I read of this says: "This scene is to be read in the light of the Cana story in John 2. The presence of the mother of Jesus, the use of woman, and the mention of the hour, are elements of both scenes. Now that the hour has come, Mary is given a role as the mother of Christians (personified by the beloved disciple).

Yes, I believe this. No, not all Christians believe this. People have studied the Bible for years. People come to different conclusions about the meanings in the Bible from studying the language it was originally written and from the knowledge of the the culture of the time and place it was written and to whom it was written. Christians do not all come to the same conclusion. This example of Mary is the conclusion those in the Catholic Church make.

Do you have to believe this? No. That is our belief.

Let us pray together, Adam, that you and those of us discussing with you on this message board are filled with wisdom and understanding of the Holy Spirit and to receive God's Love to us and to share that love with one another. Man has struggled to understand the Word of God. We may not agree on all aspects of faith, but we can share His Love while we discuss His Word.

Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and enkindle in them the fire of your love. Amen

Peace to you, Adam,
Rose Mary


Actually I heard that Mary was about 14-16 when Jesus was born , so then she probably was around 50 something when he died. But, we don't know what kind of physical health she was in. And, she probably didn't have a job either. So she probably neede someone to take care of her. I agree with you we should relate to one another in love. I really don't want to be rude, it's just hard for me to hear how the catholic church interperets some of the bible. I mean, I can see how it can reason certain things out of scripture, like the Mary thing. But, it isn't in any way backed up by scripture. That's my problem. Iv'e heard that Mary never died but was taken into heaven because she never sinned, therefore wasn't under the curse, so she couldnt' suffer the penality of sin, death. I don't know if thats what you believe, but that is totally unsubstantiated by scripture. It can only be speculated, and that is a very big speculation.


Adam,

"Actually I heard that Mary was about 14-16 when Jesus was born , so then she probably was around 50 something when he died. But, we don't know what kind of physical health she was in. And, she probably didn't have a job either. So she probably neede someone to take care of her."

Adam, I have heard as you mentioned that Mary was young when she conceived our Lord and Savior. I'm sure someone could point us to where that information comes. To me it doesn't matter what age she was at the birth and death of Jesus. I only asked you that because your response to Matt's statement (Jesus said to his mother, "Women there is your son." and to the disciple, "There is your mother." as reason for the Catholic's Church teaching that Mary was given the role as Mother of Christians.) was that Mary was old and needed someone to care for her.

My response to your idea that Mary was old, sounds like spectulation from you. You again make a slight spectulation in questioning her health and maybe that's why she needed the disciple to care for her. (It's hard to understand the manner words are written on the keyboard, so I will say I am not meaning disrespect to you with my thoughts.) Can you tell me that your idea on why Jesus said this to his mother and disciple are based on a documented known fact? That she was old (most people don't look at age 50 as you suggested might have been her age, as old! :>) !!), could have been in poor health, and had no way to support herself: are these facts or spectulations?

" It's just hard for me to hear how the catholic church interperets some of the bible. I mean, I can see how it can reason certain things out of scripture, like the Mary thing. But, it isn't in any way backed up by scripture. That's my problem."

Can someone please help Adam with the scripture part? I'm sorry, Adam, that I can't explain this, but someone will be able to help, I am sure.

" Iv'e heard that Mary never died but was taken into heaven because she never sinned, therefore wasn't under the curse, so she couldnt' suffer the penality of sin, death. I don't know if thats what you believe, but that is totally unsubstantiated by scripture. It can only be speculated, and that is a very big speculation."

Could someone explain the Assumption of Mary to Adam? I will see if I can find answers for you. Again I am sure someone here knows a link for some of your questions.

Adam, I do understand your concern for what you and others may see as misleading teachings through the Catholic Church. I will answer what I know and hopefully someone else can explain better.

Today's second reading at Mass I feel is important to our discussion. 1Corinthians 1:10-17. Our part in the Body of Christ is to bring others to know Jesus by sharing Love. Jesus is our Savior. Jesus died on the cross so that we might live eternally with God in heaven. God gave us His Holy Word through the writings that have been compiled into the Bible. They are to join us together. Too often, I think they are used to tear us apart and divide us. I pray members at Catholic Source will be able to help you understand why we believe as we do. You can explain why you belive differently. We will all learn much.

Peace,
Rose Mary


Rose Mary,
I appreciate your time with me.I am glad yu take your relationship with God seriously. But, I really think you need to know for yourself why you believe the things you do and where the bible teaches it. I have been given many answers here, Mary. But nothing that can convinvce me through scripture. you mentioned when Jesus told John that here is your mother that made her mother of us all. That is an assumption. Do you recall in Luke 8:19 Someone told him" Your mother and brothers are standing outside wanting to see you" Jesus replied"My mother and brothers are those who hear Gods word and put it into practice." Giving no special regard to Mary. The whole reason I use that verse is to show the catholic church elevates Mary without reason and Jesus treats her just like everyone else. Please Rose, don't take my word for it, or anyone else's. Find out the truth for yourself. It sounds like you are seeking. And I am glad.
Adam


Adam,

Here's something to consider:

Jesus was raised in the Jewish tradition, right? If we look at his knowledge of Jewish law, the incident of the finding at the temple etc it's evident that He was conversant with Jewish law.

Since the teachings of the Old Testament - specifically the Commandments - were known at the time, we know that Jesus knew the Commandments. (Indeed, he spoke about them at least once when he charged his followers with his greater commandment.)

Let's back up a bit. Jesus was perfect. He was sinless. He obeyed God in all things.

Therefore, he would have obeyed God's Commandments. Including "Honor your father and your mother."

Well, the fact that Jesus honored God the Father is something I think we can all agree on.

But what about honoring Jesus' mother? Wouldn't Jesus have honored her? I'm not speculating here - there is biblical evidence to that effect.

At the wedding at Cana, Jesus said "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come?" (John 2:4) yet he did as his mother had asked him.

So, if we are to live as He did, should we not also honor His mother?

*********

I recall you saying that many people had told you different things on this forum with respect to Mary. Rather than viewing it as conflicting evidence, consider it rather an accumulation of same.

*********

To one poster, you quoted Matthew 13:46-50 when Jesus said "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" This is not, as you attest, a denial of the status of Mary, but rather evidence that Jesus includes all believers into His family. (Mark 3:31 says the same thing.) So, since the bible is quite clear that Mary believed that Jesus was the saviour, and since we are all part of the family of belivers, then that joins us to Mary - among others.

******

Finally, I give you Luke 1:28 "All generations shall call me blessed." Why is it wrong for Catholics to obey this bible verse?

Yours sincerely in Christ.


Adam,

I wanted to give a quick response to some of your thoughts. Other ideas I will need to respond a bit latter when I have a longer time to spend at the computer.

Thank you for your concern for me and others that you want to make sure we know the faith that lives in our heart.

I believe Mary is the Mother of Jesus and must have been a wonderful lady for God the Father to choose her to be the Mother of His Son, Jesus. I believe that she was spotless for God to have His Son to grow in her womb. I believe God would have wanted a perfect mother to share in the conception of His perfect Son, a perfect mother to raise His son from infancy to manhood. (With God all is possible, Jesus could have been born to a very sinful mother, but I think God would have choosen the perfect site to place His Son.) I believe God placed a greatness upon Mary by giving her this wonderful position as Mother of Our Lord. I do believe Mary was without sin. I do not ask you to believe this. ( Of course I would like for you to, but if that is not comfortable to you, why would I want to have you believe something the Holy Spirit has not placed in your heart.)

Various posters here have pointed to scripture to help you see why interpretations have been made in the Catholic Church to explain the reasoning for some of your questions.

My point I want to stress at this time is that we agree that Mary was the Mother of Jesus. Jesus was born and died that we might have life eternal. If at our death, you and I, we arrive at the Gates of Heaven, do you think God will judge us differently if we have accepted Jesus as our Savior, yet I say "Your Mother Mary was a spotless virgin, Your Mother Mary was without sin from conception til death." and you Adam, say "Your Mother Mary sinned during her life and was not conceived without sin in her own mother's womb." I believe God is a Loving God. He understands why I honor Mary as Mother of My Savior. He understands why you, Adam, say Mary is of no special importance. God understands why I try to explain the special relationship the Catholic Church has for Mary. God understands why you try to explain your postion of Mary. We are both trying to do the will of the Father. We will both continue to pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I will be posting later to help you understand the "why" of more specific ideas.

Peace,
Rose Mary


Adam,

You wrote:

"Please Rose, don't take my word for it, or anyone else's. Find out the truth for yourself. It sounds like you are seeking. And I am glad.

You are correct, Adam, that I am continuing in my search for truth. I plan to do so until my earthly life is over. I don't know if I can explain my beliefs to you well, that is why I asked if someone could explain it to you. I know it, I feel it, but I don't know if I can explain it well.

I started another thread entitled, "Scripture and Tradition". It may help you understand the Catholic Church a little more. I don't expect you to embrace all the ideas, just to understand the reason we believe as we do.

I will be posting about the Assumption of Mary a bit later.

Peace,
Rose Mary


I think what you say is true, one of us is wrong about Mary, but if we are truly trusting in God for salvation only, through Jesus death on the cross, then we will both be saved. I don't want to treat you like an enemy, nor do I think if you as one. I do believe it is important to know the truth as revealed in scripture. I believe you do to. So, if you want to discuss our beliefs more I will be more than glad to do so.
Adam


You didn't say anything I disagree with,except that Mary was perfect. If you are saying we should love and respect Mary as we do all believers I will agree with you 100%. I consider Mary very blessed by God. I just know that the bible shows that she wasn't perfect. And I was told here that she was. When Jesus was a young boy he went to the temple to listen and talk to the teachers. When Mary and Joseph found him they were distressed and the bible says they didn't understand what he meant when he said they should know he had to be in his fathers house. If she was perfect she would have understood. Luke 2:49-50.


Before Adam and Eve sinned, were they perfect? Perfect, meaning sinless, yes. Perfect meaning divine, no.

By a singular act of God after the fall of Adam, created another "Eve", one who would be the Mother of the Redeemer.

When we look at the theology of this event, we look first to the Glory of God, and to Sacred Scripture.

The Ark of the Covenant provides some of the richness of this blessed event.

God instructs, in a very detailed way, how it is that the Ark is to be build, and establishes it's holiness. In the Ark of the Covenant, is the manna, the rod of Aaron, and the tablets. The Ark was made by the hands of man.

In the womb of Mary, our Mother, is the Bread of Life, the High Priest, and the Word of God made flesh. The Ark of the New Covenant, Mary, was made by God Himself, and He made it perfect.

In this most blessed womb of Mary is the New Covenant. Mary is Holy, she is not God. She is perfect, as Eve was perfect before the fall of man.

When you ponder these mysteries, ask yourself this.

What is to the greater glory of God?

Is it to the greater Glory of God, that He create just another soul to bring forth the Word made Flesh, or one that is sinless, worthy to bring forth Our Lord, in His human nature which He gets from Mary, His Virgin Mother.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Mac


Adam,

You stated:
"If she was perfect she would have understood. Luke 2:49-50."

"He said to them; "Why did you search for me? Did you not know I had to be in my Father's house?" But they did not grasp what he said to them."

I am not sure who said to you "Mary was perfect". The Catholic Church's teaching is Mary was without sin. She was conceived without the stain of original sin. She lived a Holy Life and never said "No" to the Father. That is not the same as saying she is all knowing. Mary, we believe always did the will of the Father. Mary did not know everything. She was not omniscient.

The quote from Luke doesn't effect the idea of a woman with or without sin.

Peace,
Rose Mary


Adam,

You wrote:
"I think what you say is true, one of us is wrong about Mary, but if we are truly trusting in God for salvation only, through Jesus death on the cross, then we will both be saved."

That's correct, Adam.

" I do believe it is important to know the truth as revealed in scripture. I believe you do to. So, if you want to discuss our beliefs more I will be more than glad to do so."

Adam, I have explained the truth I believe about the Mother of Jesus, Our Lord. The truth I believe of Mary is that she was totally obedient to the Father. The truth you believe is that she sinned.

I understand the interpretation of the Catholic Church on the sinlessness of Mary. You and I must trust totally the Holy Spirit for understanding. The Holy Spirit will lead us. Our hearts have to be totally open to receive what the Holy Spirit sends us.

Adam, you and I may not agree on Mary's state of sinfulness. God would never want to keep us from Him over the idea if Mary evered sinned. My understanding of Mary as sinless and as my Mother, may give me a different understanding of Mary than the understanding you have of Mary. It may help me to know that Mary is always leading others to her Son. Mary brought us her Son through the Holy Spirit. I believe she still brings us to her Son. That idea may make my journey to the Father a bit easier than someone who does not see Mary the way I do. We are all on the same journey. Some take a different path.

Peace,
Rose Mary


Adam,

I noticed Martin posted several links on another thread about Mary. I knew either Martin or someone would have links for Mary, that explain to you better than I can.

I hope you will join me in reading them.

If you click on "Find a Message" and type in message number 7406, you should find Martin's message with the links.

Peace,
Rose Mary


Kate, you cite scripture to claim that the dead cannot think or pray. I'll recite the last one here... Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.***** Kate, what you clearly don't seem to understand is that these scriptures you cite where written hundreds & hundreds of years before Jewish & Christian thought about the resurrection of the dead came to the forefront. You last quotation from psalms is a prime example. How could the psalmist, like many of the Old Testament writers, foresee what was fulfilled in the redemptive act of Christ the Lord? As for the John citation, this was a recounting of His life BEFORE His death & glorious resurrection which was to save not only us, but those who came before Him. Veronica


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