RC=whore?? (Forum Post)
RC=whore?? -
**NOTE: this post starts with an anti-Catholic treatise which is highlighted in orange)
THE JUDGEMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Rev 17:1-2(KJV)

Many times I had read this and always the same questions came to mind. What has a whore to do with Biblical prophecy? How could one woman have committed fornication with the Kings and the inhabitants of the world? Surely there must be another meaning here. I pondered these verses for days, yet it seemed to make no sense. One night as I sat down to study I paused for a few moments and prayed for understanding. Almost immediately a thought went through my mind, "Look for alternative meanings in the words." The thought kept echoing itself in the back of my mind. What words I asked? Again the thought went through my mind, " See if the word whore has an alternate meaning."

Many times in the past when confronted with confused meanings I had prayed for understanding and within moments a verse would come to mind that seemed to unlock the theme as if the Holy Spirit had led me to it. Was the spirit speaking to me now? Where should I look? The dictionary seemed the most logical so I began with that.

Whore (Hor)n. 1. A Prostitute. (from Old English Hore) Whor'ish Adj.

The dictionary simply defined it as a noun. And Whorish as an adjective but the meaning was relatively the same. Again the thought, "Look for alternative meanings."

Good idea but where should I look I asked? Again a silent thought ran through my mind, " What was the original Greek word in this verse?, Was it transliterated correctly?"

Quickly I reached for my Strong"s Exhaustive Concordance and looked up the word Whore then checked for the reference to Rev. 17:1;

4204 porne (por'-nay);
feminine of 4205; a strumpet; figuratively, an idolater:
KJV-- harlot, whore.

There it was, Porne, lit. a whore but the figurative meaning was an Idolater. I consider this for a moment, could that be correct? Prophecy is in the figurative sense, possibly this was the key. But what of the word fornication? Could it also have another meaning?

4203 porneuo (porn-yoo'-o);
from 4204; to act the harlot, i.e. (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practice idolatry:
KJV-- commit (fornication).

Figuratively to practice idolatry? Could it be that the original writers of the King James had translated all the text in the literal sense, not allowing that prophecy is figurative? I then re-wrote the verse using the figurative sense of the key words;

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great IDOLATOR that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed IDOLATRY, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her IDOLATRY.

At first inspection it seemed to make more sense, for idolatry was surly prohibited by God in the 2nd Commandment.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Exod 20:4-5(KJV)

Although the figurative meanings seem to make more sense I had to move with caution here now. Many a false doctrine has come into the church because someone figured out a way to change the meaning of a verse. The true test would lie in whether it would maintain the context throughout the remainder of the chapter.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:3(KJV)

And I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast with seven heads and ten horns. The Prophet Daniel had spoken of a beast with ten horns, could this be the same beast and if so, what has the beast to do with the whore?

Beginning in Daniel Chapter 7 the prophet described the beasts that he had seen. Four great beasts, One like a Lion, the second like a bear, the Third like a leopard and the fourth, A great and terrible beast having ten horns.

3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. Dan 7:3-7(KJV)

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:15-17(KJV)

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The Prophet Daniel has described the beast with ten horns as the 4th great kingdom upon the earth. Turning away from the Bible for a moment I consulted ancient history and sure enough it defines four great Empires in the ancient world;

1. The Babylonian Empire
2. The Medo-Persian Empire
3. The Greek-Helenistic Empire
4. The Roman Empire

History records that the Roman Empire conquered the entire known world; which definitely fits the description as related by the prophet Daniel. Could this be the beast of Rev.17?

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:23-25(KJV)

If Daniel is correct we have identified the ten horns but what of the seven heads?

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. Rev 17:9(KJV)

This seems to be some form of geographical indicator for the location of the woman. Here is the mind, which hath wisdom; the seven heads are seven mountains. I have seen some rather huge women in my day but never one that could sit on seven mountains, at least not all at once anyway. Again the spirit whispered to me, check mountains for an alternate meaning.

Mountains From the Greek word "OROS" - lit. Mountains or Hills.

If my theory were to prove correct I would now have to search the Roman Empire for a location that is defined by seven hills. That is simple enough. Today Rome is known as the "Eternal city", a nickname that it got during the second world war but prior to that going all the way back to biblical times Rome was known as the "City of Seven hills."

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Rev 17:18(KJV)

Something is amiss here though. In the opening verse they describe a whore, now it refers to a woman. Are they both one and the same? Surely the word woman can't mean a whore. Back to the Greek I go;

1135 gune (goo-nay');
probably from the base of 1096; a woman; specially, a wife:
KJV-- wife, woman.

The word woman could define a woman or a wife but that doesn't seem to offer much enlightenment. Again I paused and prayed for wisdom. Voila', there it is, in prophecy a woman depicts the Bride of Christ, literally the church. In the beginning the whore was defiled with idols. Could it be that we seek a Church that is a city unto itself, located in or near Rome, that got it's power from the Roman Empire and is defiled with Idols?

If that is correct then it can only be one place, Vatican City.

"Hold on a minute", I said to myself. God knows that I have my differences with the teachings, traditions, history and customs of the Vatican, but I am not going to be too quick to jump on this assumption. There is still a lot of the prophecy left to be examined.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: Rev 17:3-4(KJV)

Full of the names of Blasphemy?

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Matt 23:9(KJV)

49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
Luke 1:49(KJV)

What is the official title of the great Pontiff of Rome if not "Reverend Holy Father"? Did Jesus not instruct us that these titles were reserved for our Father which art in Heaven?

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: Rev 17:4(KJV)

Hardly a soul that can't visualize the great Pontiff here, long flowing robes decked in jewels with a Golden Chalice in his left hand as he leads the procession.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:6(KJV)

One only has to read Fox's Martyrs or the history of the inquisitions to understand that part;

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Rev 17:7-8(KJV)

As late as three or four years ago this portion would have remained a complete mystery. The beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Having already identified the beast as the Roman Empire we can then be assured that it was. In the latter part of the 6th century the Roman Empire fell, (and it was not). And in recent years we have seen a strong movement to form a Unified Europe. In essence once the unification of Western Europe is completed it will once again established the territory of the Western Roman Empire under one government, (and yet it is.)

But what of the ten horns. We know that they are kings that shall arise out of the beast, but does history bear the proof? History records that the Roman Western Empire fell in the latter part of the 6th century and was divided into exactly 10 nations;

After the fall of the Roman Empire, the Western Empire (Eurpope) was divivided into exactly ten separate kingdoms, seven of which still remain today.

1.The Alemani( Germany) 6,The Visogoths (Spain)
2.The Franks (France) 7.The Lombards (Italy)
3.The Burgundians (Switzerland) 8. The Vandals
4. the Suevi (Portugal) 9. The Ostrogoths
5.The Anglo-Saxons (Britain) 10. The Heruli

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:24(KJV)

Daniel had predicted that a little horn had arisen that was diverse from the first and the little horn would overthrow three Kings. History records that as the political might of the Roman Empire was waning to a close quite the opposite was happening in the church. Emperor Constantine had bestowed the authority to rule the church upon the bishop of Rome. To this day the Pope is head of the church because he is the Bishop of Rome and not Vice versa as is commonly thought.

Thus as the Empire was divided each new king had political control over his respective territory while the Pope retained Ecclesiastical control over the entire region. The little horn (the Pope) was diverse in that he derived his powers not by the force of a mighty Army but by the will of the people through ecclesiastical influence.

By this time most of the countries of Western Europe had adopted Christianity as their principle religion and submitted to the authority of the Pontiff of Rome to head the Church but three refused; The Vandals, Ostrogoths and Hiruli. In retaliation the Pope formed crusades against them to force them into submission. Backed by all the other countries the Vatican was successful in overthrowing them. (And he shall subdue three kings)

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:25(KJV)

In her zeal to conquest the whole world in the name of the Lord the Church of Rome introduced many sweeping changes into the faith to appease the pagan converts into submission. From the foundation of the world God had established the 7th day (Saturday) to be the Sabbath, but the pagan converts had always attended their principal worship service on the first day,(Sunday).In 532AD the Pope issued a Papal Bull declaring Sunday the official day of worship for the Roman Catholic Church.

The modern practice of celebrating birthdays was never practiced until late in the 4th century. Consequently there is nothing in the Bible that confirms the date of the Birth of our Lord Jesus Christ. By contrast; for centuries the pagans had celebrated the 25th of December as Veneribillis De Solis, Birth of the SUN GOD. Realizing that the pagan converts would no more forego Veneribilis De Solis than would Christians forgo the traditions of Christmas today, the Church made the obvious response. The church simply decalred a Christian significance to the date, thus the Birth of the SUN was changed to the birth of the SON. Even to this day the entire Christian world celebrates the highest pagan holiday of the season. Certainly the beast acting through the Pontiff of Rome had managed to change times but what of laws?

From the very inception of the faith Christians had been commanded to believe by faith alone, yet the pagan converts, like so many Christians today demanded some tangible evidence of the presence of their Deity during worship service. Pagan temples were full of statues to their many Gods and tradition held that the pagans should light incense and candles during their prayers. Being unable to totally change the will of the people the great Bishop of Rome simply seized the most obvious solution. Rename the temples and give the statues some form of Christian significance. The most outstanding example of this is the statue of St.Peter in the entry court at St.Peter's Basilica in Rome. For hundreds of years the statute had stood in the Pantheon, the pagan temple to the god Zeuss. It was simply moved to the Vatican and renamed St.Peter and to this day millions of pilgrims to the Holy City pause and kiss the toe of the statue as they enter the great cathedral. So many have done so over the centuries that the toe itself is almost worn away.

But what of the Law of God? Had God not forbidden bowing before idols in the 2nd commandment?

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Exod 20:4-5(KJV)

So many sweeping changes were being made in Christianity that the great pontiff feared the people would soon begin to notice them. Something must be done quickly if he were to prevent an open rebellion by his more orthodox followers. The solution was very simple. Mechanical publishing techniques had yet to be invented, reproductions of the Holy word were made by pious monks laboring away for years to hand copy the text. The Pope had complete authority over the publishing and distribution of the bible so it was no great challenge to take the Bibles away from the people.

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Pet 1:20-21(KJV)

Seizing a verse out of context the Pope made a feeble justification for confining access of the Holy word exclusively to the sworn members of the priesthood. It was commanded that there should be no private ownership, hence no private interpretation of the word. Anyone outside the priesthood who was found to possess a copy of the Bible would be declared a heretic and could suffer the worst possible consequences for their treason. From the later part of the 6th century until the great reforms of the 16th century thousands if not millions of people were publicly burned at the stake for possessing the holy Word or refusing to submit to the authority of the Pope.

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:5(KJV)

Mystery? Again I turned to the Greek to see if it has another meaning beside the obvious.

3466 musterion (moos-tay'-ree-on);
from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): KJV-- mystery.

A silence imposed by religious rites. That certainly describes the actions of the church in confining access of the word exclusively to the sworn members of the priesthood.

What of Babylon? This reference must be in the figurative sense for the Babylonian empire had fallen hundreds of years before the Apostle John recorded the Revelation.

897 Babulon (bab-oo-lone');
of Hebrew origin [894]; Babylon, the capitol of Chaldaea (literally or figuratively [as a type of tyranny]):
KJV-- Babylon.

Tyranny was certainly the rule of the day in the dark ages. Hundreds of Inquisitors scoured Europe in search of any poor souls who dared speak against the Pope. Although the Spanish inquisition gained the most notoriety; the practices where common throughout all of Western Europe. Even Kings and Queens were deposed if they dared to refuse full allegiance to the Pope.

And the Abomination of the Earth? By now it should be very apparent to all that the church had become so self serving that it hardly had time for true worship of the Lord. By the end of the tenth century many small religious sects began to emerge. The Waldense Society, the Huegonauts, John Huff and many more. The Church became so enraged at these radical dissenters that they sent armies of armed priests throughout Europe and round up these heretics. History records that 60,ooo members of the Waldense Bible Society were burned at the stake in one single night.

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev 18:1-5(KJV)

Early in the 15th Century a devout young Monk named Martin Luther was cloistered away in a monastery in Germany. Enduring a life of piety and depravation in the name of the Lord he labored daily at the hand reproduction of the Holy bible. Gradually he began to see the contradictions between the teachings of the bible and the conduct of the Church. Smuggling bits and scrapes out of the Monastery he began teaching the people the true word of God. Martin Luther was subsequently tried for heresy and excommunicated from the church, but that wouldn't stop him. He went on to become the most notable of the reformers that began what we know today as the Protestant movement. And with that the call went out to the world;

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE


When I read, "The Great Whore" posting of LazyPup, I must admit that it really got under my skin. Mostly because it attacked the Catholic Church with the same anti-Catholicism that I'd seen over the last two years, since I began looking more closely at the Church through with I professed my faith in Christ Jesus.

When I finished reading, I said to myself, "All these things have been refuted...but, how do I address them in a clear and concise manner?" It is my hope that the following addresses the errors of ideology found in "The Great Whore" post. I will, and must, allow the reader to decide for him/herself.

Now, let us come clean, and say that this article of LazyPup is actually a rendering of a book called "A Woman Rides the Beast", by Dave Hunt. And, since being published, it has been refuted by a number of Catholic apologists; one of whom is James Akin. Mr. Akin has written two articles that are available on the Web: 'Hunt'-ing the Whore of Babylon and The Whore of Babylon. Before one merely accepts the unscholarly, unecumenical and uncharitable works of Mr. Hunt (and his proponents, like LazyPup), one owes it to oneself to read these works. For those of you who will choose not to go to those links, I will present some of the things in Mr. Akin's tract, which directly and wholly refutes the idea of the Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon.

First, I believe it is important to discuss the "new meanings" that LazyPup's article places on the Scriptures he cites. After all, are we to think that LazyPup (or those who wrote the articles which he read) has more insight than the translators of 8 (yes, 8!) Bible translations?

Accurate Translation?

LazyPup, first, takes on the translation of "porne". He takes the least common definition, rather than the most common, which is taken by other translators. It is interesting to note that the King James Version (KJV), New Internation Version (NIV), Revised Standard Version (RSV), New American Standard Bible (NASB), Darby (DBY), and Young's Living Translation (YLT) - all Protestant Translations - as well as Catholic transations, such as the New American Bible (NAB) and Douay-Rheims Version of 1582 (DRV), do not make this translation. Are we really to think, if this translation were to be correct, that it take nearly 2,000 years to get it right? Seems highly illogical that other translators did not pick up on this much, much earlier.

We can say the same things regarding "porneuo", and even of "oros" - which I will discuss at greater length later in this article. We can see, though, from the Biblical translations, that other scholars and translators do not agree with LazyPup's translation.

Next, we turn our attention to the statements made by LazyPup regarding the identity of the "Whore of Babylon".

The Seven Heads

Let us look, then, at the statements regarding the "beast." LazyPup turns to the Book of Daniel for interpretation of the beast. But, why? We are told about the beast in this very chapter. Wouldn't it make sense to remain in the book you are reading, if the answer is found there?

Rev 17:9-10 "This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while."

Here, LazyPup argues that the "seven mountains" are the seven "hills" of ancient Rome. There are a few problems with this interpretation:
Of Sixty-five (65) occurrences of this word, "horos", in the New Testament, only three are rendered "hill" by the KJV. The remaining 62 are translated as "mountain" or "mount." This should shed some great light on this interpretation; for, if it's been rendered mountains, and not hills, as LazyPup would like, then, "seven mountains" could refer to anything. It is noteworthy, that mountains are common symbols of whole kingdoms in the Bible (Ps 68:15; Dan 2:35; Obad 8-21; Amos 4:1, 6:1). The Whore's "seven mountains" could be the seven kingdoms which she reigns over, or seven kingdom that she has something in common with.

The number seven could be symbolic too - and we've certainly seen that LazyPup is willing to utilize symbolic or figurative interpretation...but, it seems, as it serves his purpose. He utilizes the figurative interpretation in "porne" and "porneuo", but then comes to the "seven mountains" and turns literal. How convenient.

And, even if we agree with the translation of "hills", there are many cities that are built upon seven hills. So, we are not necessarily narrowed down to Rome. And, even if we agree that it is speaking of Rome...are we speaking of pagan Rome or Christian Rome? Pagan Rome fits all of the criteria much better than Christian Rome; as we shall see further.

It is important to note, too, that there is a distinction between Rome and Vatican City - which is the "headquarters" of the Catholic Church. This makes the claim even less credible, since Vatican City is not built on seven hills, but only one...Vatican Hill. AND, Vatican Hill is not even one of the seven hills upon which ancient Rome was built (Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, Aventine, Palatine, and Capitoline).  These are on the EAST side of the Tiber River, while Vatican Hill is on the WEST. (Oops, wrong side of the river, too.)

Other arguments

We have seen that the "Seven Hills" argument does not hold up. And, one only needs to read the article by James Akin to see the "ten horns" argument doesn't hold up either. Now we turn to other miscellaneous arguments.

Full of the Names of Blasphemy

LazyPup wishes to play the "call no man father" card. But, only a small amount of investigation will reveal that St. Paul states that he bacame the "father" of the Corinthians..."I became your father through the gospel." (1 Cor 4:15) And, too, he calls Abraham, "father." (cf. Rom 4:11-18)...and Isaac (cf. Rom 9:10) Too, we think of our male parent as "father". We can, and do, understand these men as "father-figures", but never think of them as our one Father in heaven. If we did not make the distinction, surely both Catholic and non-Catholic would be guilty of such blasphemy. So, it is not blasphemy, when properly understood, and makes for a weak case on LazyPup's part.

Purple and Scarlet..jewels...and Gold Chalice

Hmmm...again, LazyPup is certainly willing to utilize interpretations as symbolic or literal when it suits him. Purple symbolizes royalty, red for the blood of Christian martyrs. He says the the woman is a city, and fornication is not literal sex...but, the purple and red garments are now suddenly literal.

Now, purple and red are not the dominant colors of Catholic vestments. White is. Even the Pope where's white. Further, when purple and red are ADDED to the white vestments, purple symbolizes repentance, and red - the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs....in homage. In Revelation, these things are not homage, but contrast. Besides, these have been traditional colors ever since ancient Israel. God commands that scarlet (red) yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev 14:4, 6, 49-52; Num 19:6), ad that priests' vestments be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex 28:4-8, 15, 33; 39:1-8, 24, 29).

The golden cup...is turned into a Golden Chalice by LazyPup, and he mistakenly says that the Pope leads a "procession". What procession is he speaking of? Besides, the translation and the word that appears, poterion, is the ordinary word for 'cup', not chalice. So, we're not speaking of a chalice anyway. And, further, still, he wishes to defame the cup used for the Lord's Supper - something which was commanded by Christ Himself (Luke 22:19-20, 1 Cor 11:24-25). And, most chalices used in Catholic Euchristic celebrations are not gold, but brass, silver, and glass. And, he holds to his reckless literal interpretations because they suit him here.

Revelation tells us (14:10, 16:9, 18:6) that this is the cup of God's wrath that is given to the Whore. It's not a Eucharistic chalice.

Drunken on the blood of the Saints and Martyrs

Certainly, Pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem, which many scholars have pointed to these passages concerning, would be more fitting of this, than the Catholic Church. Further, the inquisitions (there were 3) have no accurate history...and certainly Protestants have had their share of murderous history, so as to not point an accusatory finger.

Anyway, the statement on the inquisition is weak, historically and interpretationally.

Europe as the "10 horns"

Europe has more countries than this.

Paganism in the Catholic Church

Sabbath solemity has been discussed on this board. Nothing wrong with celebrating birthdays. Pagans did not celebrate on Dec 25th, and if they did, it wouldn't matter for they did not celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ - True God.

Worship of statues was declared heretical by the Church...as iconoclasm. Anyone who looks into the church history on iconoclasm will find out the meanings and differentiations in such things.

~~
Now, the other claims of this article are refuted in the two articles linked above...and the reader is encouraged to read them for.

LazyPup's irresponsible promotion of shotty workmanship and clear anti-Catholic bias should not be viewed at truthful. One should not accept these things, but rather should investigate them for oneself. Thou shalt answer to One....God - and wilst thou claim ignorance? Of course, one should beware of bearing false witness too...

God bless, Matt


As long as the muslim dome of the rock sits on the place God determined to set His Holy Temple, I can't see how the catholic church can be the great harlot.


The only temple that God-Yahweh-Jesus-Kali-Hahweniyah-Allah etc. cares about is our bodily temples.

You may want to use Jesus chasing the money changers out of Herod's temple as an excuse to think otherwise.

Jesus didn't care about Herod's temple and prophesied its destruction.
Iesus's demonstration was symbolic of our need to chase our mercantile interests out of our bodily temple when they interfere with our building the Kingdom of Heaven in the HERE AND NOW ON EARTH.

The Wedding Feast parable where the Lord invites guests who refuse because of their financial interests reinforces this view.


Tautua,

I'm not sure how you have special info to know what Jesus' motives were outside of what He said.

But everything you said was outside of Scripture.

The Dome of the Rock is profaning the site God deemed as holy.

All we have to do is look at pictures to see that!

Barbara


Could you please explain the "Iesus" reference to me? My Bible does not use that word and I'm having trouble following your notes and figuring out the difference between Jesus and Iesus.

Thanks


I refered to Jesus as Iesus because:

1. the letter J was invented only about 400 years ago.

2. the 1611 King James Bible uses Iesus.

3. I am making the point that Jesus name means means Yahweh-joyous or Yah-saves... Yah-sus.

4. Gees-us is a combination of Greek words 1114 & 5300 (Strongs Greek dictionary) 'ges', meaning seducer-imposter-witch combined with 'us' meaning pig.

5. This all leads to the contention that it is the Character of Jesus we want to manifestin our lives no matter what we call Him.


Thanks! I learned a lot from your explanation.

Gwen


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